In the matter of the Horde player finding Jaina acceptable enough? Yeah, no, their opinion doesn’t matter.
You missed the part where he says “Horde & Alliance, we come to this crossroads again and again” That bit? Yeah. ITS BECAUSE THE HORDE KEEPS ATTACKING.
It is obvious Thrall considers both factions to be the issue when its clear Horde has 100% of the blame when it comes to starting wars.
Why would she want to change Dalaran? Those Blood Elves have no one to blame but themselves for their deaths. The fact that the Horde was allowed back into Dalaran is blatant Horde favortism when that city was supposed to be a replacement to Horde blowing up Theramore. Since you know… Garrosh and the Blood Elves blew it up.
No, their complaints have been she became crazy that needed putting down or she is a dreadlord because she hates the Horde now.
I am guessing you do not believe they should be dismantled either?
What are you talking about? What did Jaina do to the Horde?
The same Horde players that say Garrosh/Orgrim/Guldan/Blackhand did nothing wrong? But lets say for the sake of argument that Jaina did do wrong. Do you want me to list all the Horde characters that did wrong? I assure you their list is much longer and darker than anything Jaina has done.
Horde innocents? There is no such thing.
Rexxar is horde. He isn’t ours. And his quote is subject of much ridicule because no one has any idea what he is talking about.
The Blood Elves blew up Theramore and when they violently resisted arrest they got killed. Its that simple.
Trust me I don’t like it either because once again Alliance characters are share by both factions and these characters are allowed to interact with the Horde player.
You say I am not being forthright, but that is the thing, anyone acting surpised that the faction which had plenty of morally dubious acts finally tipping to full blow villainhood seems disingenous to me.
Things change and things remain the same. Ultimately what I thought of the Horde ended up being very much correct.
I’d say your just deflecting the conversation more than anything else. And no I dont need any lessons of false dichotomies. Thank you very much.
There’s the sidestep again instead of being forthright.
‘You say I’m not being forthright, BUT, goes on not agreeing with a point he’s seemingly agreed to.’
Surviving? Cooperating with the Alliance? Nobody has questioned the Horde has troubles. Significant troubles. But they’re still there and working together in a struggling cooperation. That much has stayed the same for a long time, true.
There’s a difference between just saying it and pointing it out. Like, for example, this.
Then why is it useless to point one out when it happens? You claimed it was useless rather than deny that’s what it was. A deflection instead of explaining how your statement wasn’t fallacious.
Oh Bullcrap. I linked a direct quote of what Blizzard tells prospective new Horde players what the horde is. There is no way you can misinterpret that.
Blizzard is on record for saying that the thing that makes WoW different was that it turned the traditional monster = villain concept on its head. That blerb on the website literally confirms that. You seem to be pretending the constant stream of claims, even by Anduin, that the Horde are heroic and good. Might also note that very few players playing today would likely have a copy of the original WoW manual since most sales are digital and that manual claimed all Eredar were evil demons. Worgen were mindless beasts and monsters. Night Elf culture was xenophobic. Again with the cherry picking.
So your admitting your cherry picking? I have never claimed the horde is perfect or even righteous. It generally however had a heroic leaning which Blizzard has crapped all over. I am not cherry picking. The entire factions identity however shouldn’t have been thrown in the trash to show up that one aspect of the horde.
You dismiss a direct quote from the WoW website today like it doesn’t exists and say new players ‘should have known better’ when the only justification you have is a theme that blizzard themselves have claimed they flipped, and opening that only one race experiences and and a WoW manual so old almost no WoW players today have probably even seen it.
Oh so it was fine you complaining back then but players today shouldn’t complain. I guess that means we can expect to never see you complain about anything in WoW ever again. Because of the long game. Sure Zerde, Sure.
You can literally download it for free if you want and no it doesnt claim that.
I think the operative word is the traditional monsters CAN BE GOOD, not that they are actual good.
New players or just players in general, had plenty of opportunity to learn both ingame and out of game what the Horde really entails. Even leveling boosting a toon to 110 and just doing the Siege of Lordearon would have told you what kind of faction it was. If they decided to ignore what the Horde is, after everyone of those hints, forshadowings etc well it is no one else’s fault then the player.
Do you have problems with reading comprehension, or maybe you just like putting words in other people’s mouths? Not once once did I say you should stop complaining. But at the time same time your are either going to have to make peace with how the lore of WoW has gone down(or at the very least wait until lore you want is added) or you can keep stewing in your own misery.
Is the one I quoted true then? The Horde are protectors of Hope and Freedom? Or is it false? If it is false, it is, by definition of the word, a lie.
So is the Horde good or is it evil? There isn’t much nuance to this. Now that Sylvanas has left does that make us morally on par with the Alliance because Blizzard seems to be suggesting that too with even Anduin defending how good and honorable we are. Which is true? Are we monstrous and evil or are we heroic and honorable and everything that happened is all Sylvanas’s fault?
For the record one of the issues I have with the treatment of the horde is how contradictory it’s identity is treated to the point where it makes the whole thing feel hollow and superficial.
Yet you admit that all things were original lore that got effectively retconned. Oh and for the record, Draenei ARE Eredar. Eredar are the race. Draenei are just the faction of Eredar that refused Sageras.
But since your saying ‘things change’ in answer to you quote about the forsaken in the WoW manual I point you to the Before the Storm novel were we see Forsaken who are clearly not evil and who show a lot of gratitude and friendship to the other Horde races. In fact they make a point that a lot of Forsaken feel deeply indebted to the Tauren for advocating for them.
If your retcons apply then I think ours do too. Unsurprisingly, you again have double standards here.
And how many WoW players do you think actually have? Doesn’t change my point in the slightest. Plus it was canon lore. Lore back then even had them as one of the key races in corrupting Sargaras.
This is a joke. Oh so they CAN be good but they aren’t actually good and are in fact evil. What a load of crap.
So your saying only after investing time and money do they get an honest appraisal of what the faction is actually like instead of an honest representation when they chose their faction. I didn’t see anything in that that a Tauren, orc or troll player that would indicated that their faction is evil.
Your telling people why their issues are wrong and you even say, well if they don’t like it then ignorance isn’t an excuse. That is pretty much telling people they are wrong for complaining. You don’t need to say it out right. Your implying it by feeling the need to go out of your way to dismiss their issues.
Comprehension is a bit more than just reading the exact words. It is about understanding the implied intention and I don’t see why you would spend so much time telling other players why their concerns are unjustified and wrong unless you felt they should stop complaining.
That said, it will be the height of hypocrisy if you come to this forum whining about future story developments after this.
okay i see where you are coming from.
you are saying that their view is valid and 100 % in the right with no chance of being wrong, so if they can’t be wrong by definition any discussion is pretty much pointless. So why even bother?.
You know, there is a reason on why i actually prefer the alliance, Yes i am aware that maybe not all their actions were “good”, yes i am aware of having a few members going off-rails.
But i simply don’t agree that the alliance is as bad as the horde in any way.
i compare jaina with sylvanas because they both are big names in each faction.
And yes, she is far a better person because
A)She doesn’t want to end all hope
B)She didn’t destroyed a city full civillians just to contradict a dying elf
C)She didn’t tortured innocent people to test a new weapon
D)She didn’t started a war for no reason
E)She actually cares about her people and faction.
That doesn’t mean that she “did nothing wrong” simply that she has made mistakes believing that she was in the right and that she was protecting her people and the world.
And she replies with “we all have blood on our hands” what do you think this mean?
Not so long ago she was all about dismantling, but it is like she encountering someone who survived the purge reminded her of what she did.
Feeling that shame is what changed her tone to “maybe i should not be so angry at the horde and admit that i am not exactly innocent”.
That is my interpretation at least. because at that moment is when she accepted working with thrall/baine/horde to get rid of sylvanas.
But then again, it doesn’t mean that she is “neutral” and neither she should be accepted by the horde player. like not at all. She is still their enemy. or in theory at least.
Not really, she didn’t really killed a large portion, she still needs to do a lot of catch-up before being at the same level as the horde.
The problem is that usually their argument comes from a desperate attempt to demonize the alliance and see things that simply aren’t there.
So what does that mean?
That they are wrong. you can have a different and valid opinion but if you share it in a public forum then be prepared to have your opinion challenged, the same way i am doing it now.
Here is the problem with this.
The alliance would be justified to do anything after teldrassil because it was an unprovoked war of aggression where thousands of civillians died for no reason other than the horde one day wake up and decided that it was a good day for mass murder.
It is sad that blizzard has done that to both of the playerbases but it is just how it is.
No, she is not neutral simply because she had a common goal with both baine and thrall. hell, those two are probably the reason on why she doesn’t want to murder them all considering what they did for her in the past.
Minus the draenei one, the other two were expansions/evolutions on the lore. Not retcon. Also, draenei were eredars but they are now effectively two different race. That would be like say void elves or blood elves are the same race as night elves.
Sounds like the answer should be obvious, they are both. It has always been part of their lore to seem to constantly shift between both extemes.
As for who is to blame for the whole mess, I would say it was mostly Sylvanas and Saurfang. Although not everything can be put on their shoulder. Which ultimately the Horde will have to actually atone or we will probably back here in a few more expansions.
Never said there were n’t some good forsaken. That doesnt however change the fact one of their most prominent characteristics was nearly blind loyalty to Sylvanas.
Now that Sylvanas is out of the picture it is likely the Forsaken(and possibly the Horde) will change, or they wont, we all have to wait and see.
Assuming there might come a time I do end up having a complaint(and I dont doubt someday that might happen) I guess I can throw every last word your saying against me back at you. I mean seem hypocritcal of you to complain about me theoretically complaining if you still have the gall to keep complain as well and ignore everything I say. N’est pas?
Your free to feel however you want. That doesnt mean you can ignore the harsh reality that the story was always pointing us to this point. That the Horde by its very nature was going to be turbulent and constantlu battling for its identity. Maybe it will change with this new council, maybe it wont. All any of us can do is wait and see.
Jaina is one of the most prominent characters in this expansion. It’s natural to put the blame on her, considering how Blizzard has written her in the past. Not much point in blaming the other leaders when they’re written as props instead of people.
So Horde player’s opinions on having a hated Alliance character forced on them as a lead of neutral content doesn’t matter. Your reference to dismantling the Horde presumable means their view on that doesn’t matter? And you have consistently referred to a hard line Alliance POV (“Alliance has done nothings wrong”, “The Horde has always been evil”, etc.) as objective truth.
All I can say is that I think this is not only mean spirited, but unworkable. Horde players pay the same subscription you do and, esp. right now, the game can’t afford to alienate large sections of their players.
Its more like their complaints are unfounded or weak at best.
Compared to what their own characters have done.
No it was a joke about how the Horde and their players have a cart blanch in the story and receive zero backlash where Alliance is concerned. Alliance players are simply never allowed to defeat the Horde or kill their characters like the Horde is allowed to.
The Alliance has done nothing but protect themselves and react to what the Horde does first or are you arguing otherwise?
The Alliance playerbase is already crumbled and whatever else that is left is holding on with its finger nails. Maybe its time the Horde and its players are not so favoured by Blizzard and actually receive some attention.
All what i am reading is that horde players are right when they say something that is clearly wrong simply because they also pay but not because they are actually right but rather because is not possible to being wrong in the first place.
i never once denied that they have valid complains, i simply challenge the idea that their view is correct just by default and not because they aren’t letting their bias blind them.
Who is the one with the strawman argument now?
all what she is doing is saying things how simply are. it is a fact that the horde commited countless of warcrimes during this war and is a fact that they need to pay for it.
i understand if horde players don’t like the idea of being punished for something they had no say in, but is not alliance players fault either that this was how blizzard made it.
LOL really… the game already has, its called the alliance, and half of the horde id wager, so instead of arguing with pheandra i suggest you to scream at blizzard to see if anything changes.
No, I’m saying it is “as valid” as the Alliance. I have to say this seems disingenuous. Do you really not see an space between the Alliance always being right and the Horde always being right?
Well, that isn’t my point. But it is interesting because the reason I switched to Alliance was that Blizzard trashed Horde lore so badly and made us villians in our own story and I really think Alliance payers didn’t get hit so hard. Especially going forward. In spite of the events in BfA, their lore is still reasonable and doesn’t need active fixing.
[I’ve deleted text, here and elsewhere, on why the Alliance has always been more right than the Horde. I simply don’t see how (even if I agreed with it) it means that Horde players shouldn’t object to having an unrepentant Jaina as a leader of neutral content.]
You list things that make Sylvanas worse than Jaina. I’m not sure how not being to be on of the most evil characters, from either faction ever, makes her “good” or justifies the assertion that Horde players shouldn’t object to following her.
I think it means that Blizzard has Thrall and Saurfang make speeches about the Horde being wrong and evil but seem to think that a vague non-apology is OK for Jaina? I have to say, I don’t agee
She makes a vague statement that could refer to almost anything, including the death of her father. (You know, the story arc she only just finished?). I have to say, it seems amazing to me that I see posts dismissing Thrall’s and Saurfang’s speeches as nothing and then I read posts using this vague statement as her apologizing.
Well, I think her “we are all Azeroth” comment is more than “I may not like you, but I will work with you.”. But, to use that Rexxar quote again, she has “gone too far and killed too many” to be plausibly acceptable as a friend to Horde players without a real explicit apology.
You know, if she had been presented as an enemy who had just moderated her hate, that would have worked better. But this “I’m your fried but I feel no need to apologize for killing your innocents” doesn’t work.
You know that this is an ad-hominem attack right? An actual logical fallacy. (I would like to the wikipedia page on this.)
It also presents a rebutal of the the arguments of as a rebuttal to all. This is also a logical fallacy, but I forget the name of it.
Well, at least you acknowledge that it sucked for both sides. The issue is reminiscent of what the right the allies had to punish ordinary Germans and Japanese. But it is irrelevant to what Horde players should find acceptable.
And again you use “the Horde” reference to justify making characters responsible for things they didn’t do. And in the same post where you dismissed things the Alliance has done as " a few members going off-rails".
So you say she isn’t arguing the Alliance point of view as objective fact, and then present an Alliance view as “how tihngs are”.
Can you see how this read as your supporting an argument as valid but trying to call it a straw-man at the same time?
[quote]i understand if horde players don’t like the idea of being punished for something they had no say in, but is not alliance players fault either that this was how blizzard made it.
[/quote]
True. I think both sides have real greavances. But the post in question was explicit in dismissing the Horde players opinions as not mattering.
There is no worse because there is no fixing this mess for the alliance unless you dismantle the horde, do you understand that as a long time alliance fan thats the only position to have? else we look like a bunch of weak and naive genocide enablers, i agree its unworkable in a two faction game HOWEVER i also agree with pheandra, thats the only choice there can be no compromise and this is all blizzards fault hence why i try to keep most of my opinions to myself, no use arguing about it and theyll probably think everything is fine, still is worth a shot trying to voice our grievances to them.
Well, I can’t force you to be willing to see the Horde POV and how much this has all sucked. All I can say is that I don’t think this gets traction with many Alliance players. And, in the end, I switched to Alliance to get out of what they have done to the Horde.
This is not the right approach either since ignoring things we don’t like also stagnate the whole world of the IP and all becomes into the cyclical comic storyline or anything new is relegated to very small storylines without any real stake as you can see in many fictional works.
I do agree the factions has become really insipid but asking and pressing the authors for a better storyline is much better in the long run rather than just continue the path of retconing from WoW(which has only worsened things)
But the Expendition was send especifically by her and with approval of the Alliance in order to have a foothold in the Horde.
Both scenarios are different and if you say “but then Rastakhan shouldn’t let him still have some position in politics” the answer to this is that he had a very good talent to predict events and he was right most of them. Even the alliance doesn’t have a problem with this kind of behavior as Anduin just lecture Genn to pay attention to his order rather than go yolo(yes he did something good but it was accidental as even bts Anduin argues Genn put heavy restrain in diplomacy with the horde and the results of these events are ignored)
You still argues about this? And even if you take the Zandalari activity of Zul in Cataclysm as an attack (Because the MoP one was Kirin Tor and Blood elves mounting an expedition to steal Lei-Shen technology and mogu magic to gain some adventage over Garrosh). Then you have to take in account the good made by Zandalar in helping to both the Horde and Alliance against Hakkar that could had unleashed a very dangerous plague(Stormwind being nearby would had suffered a lot) if it wasn’t for them.
Really?
This what Anduin says to Jaina:
-Anduin: Sylvanas is out there somewhere. Until she’s brought to justice, I don’t think Tyrande or Genn will truly consider the war to be over.
-Jaina: The Kul Tiran fleet is scouring the seas, and Shaw has spies searching every dark corner of Azeroth. She can’t hide for long.
I never said they don’t have mistrust or even a reason to fight against the Horde but right now they just want to finish off Sylvanas and be done with the whole affair, nothing really complex as even Anduin points out
Unfortunately the devs has the last say and honestly I don’t have problems with Gilneas being back to the Alliance over Arathi that was given to an already semi dead dinasty and to hype the human potential meme.
Not really, the guy was created with a especific backstory to not being sympathized or liked with the other faction, same way Sylvanas and Garrosh weren’t created for the Alliance to look in awe and sing praises on them like:
“Whoa look how awesome is Garrosh killing those sailors or Sylvanas raising humans and genociding nelves”
Just in case you didn’t understand what I meant. The alliance characters aren’t presented in any negative light
Varian declaring war in Undercity is never come up at the narrative after Wotlk
Veresa is never held to any responsability for killing Blood elves
-Remember when Thrall was attacked by alliance ships in his way to Maelstrom? Yea no one in-universe does it
This one sided narrative alongside to make the Horde raze Alliance settlement is the most harmful thing they do their IP and all because they can’t agree wheter they want to imitate Tolkien or Warhammer fantasy
I don’t rub anything, just pointing out the disgusting way the writers see the Alliance with making them as the punching bag of the Horde with them razing an alliance city or capital in order to justify any act of aggresion they alliance does on the Horde and even giving some weight in how the Alliance army sees the Horde in a bad light
Thishas been pointed out many times for everyone including Alliance players and how tiresome Blizzard repeats this one sided narrative(nobody wants to raze cities, just fight in a brawl, win and celebrate the victory at home) unless you consider pointing out that fact as toxic which really, it is not
To quote myself
Really I don’t see any toxicity as even points out how the Horde can never do anything good and it is always the villain or monster in this kind of stories
I know, They are still there with the Warlock Black Iron but they just stand there to be killed by the WQ of “kill x to fill the bar”
You can downplay this, but doesn’t change the fact that at least 1 dev listened to the complains of this scenario and made adjustments unlike others invasions with “interesting lines” for example in one invasion from the Alliance PoV, An elite monk pandaren has this line:
“The horde fights with honor, can you say the same?”
I mean you are quite volatile when you perceive an opinion that you feel rubs salt on the wound which is not a good approach, especially on forum that doesn’t have much a punishment system for outright toxic behavior or even railing off-topic a thread.
Same as above
Like the rest? See this is the real problem of generalizing and thinking just because a few mean that instantly gives you a free pass to do the same thing which is not how it funtion or else you just continue their work and degrade the topic.
Listen you’re allowed to have your opinion as everyone but with your approach(Taking fiction too far and seeing this as some competition of who is right) I don’t think the weight of your comments will merit much to talk or even a reply unless you change.
