You kind of missed the part in between where Ashvane sent her to the Twilight Zone. Despite the rhetoric she gave to Katherine Proudmoore, Ashvane’s instructions to her “shipper” were focused on keeping Jaina alive.
Presumably her plan was to drive her insane in that twilight zone and make her ripe for Void manipulation.
If anything, they’d retcon Varian ever having declared war in Wrath of the Lich King. They took it out of the game already, so there wouldn’t even be a quest to contradict.
First of all, nobody is making one of the most hated Horde leaders into a hero for both sides.
Second in major cinematics you have Saurfang saying the Horde represents the Legion Horde and Thrall saying all the wars were the Hordes fault. What do we have for Alliance characters, a vague comment that could have refereed to anything.
Third, even if they were giving the Horde a pass, it wouldn’t make the handling a Jaina better, it would just make it problem for both sides.
But even with all that, I’m hardly demanding an apology. I’m just saying that they either shouldn’t expect her to be acceptable to the Horde without an apology. If they want to leave her as a hero to the Alliance, and a villian to the Horde, so be it.
Sure it was blurb, if it makes you happy. Never said it wasn’t. Still context is king and really the entire point of the discussion with Syriyna was that Horde players had ample opportunity to realize the Horde was morally dark and was warned time and again Sylvanas would have a “reckoning” and players either ignored it/thought it wouldnt affect them.
Warcraft has remain fairly consistent with alot of things. The bad guys have ALWAYS been beaten in the end. Like it or not, Sylvanas has been portrayed as villainous for a LONG time and was always going to end up being controversial. It was always the nature of her character.
You can consider whatever I say useless or you can stop hiding your head in the sand. Sylvanas is a villain, the Horde until has proven to be a failure as a system and needed to be reformed again. And now we all have to wait and see if the story will repeat again or if something else will happen.
What things she has done to the horde? She didn’t destroyed an entire city full of civillians like the horde did.
She didn’t started a war out of nowhere. she didn’t tortured horde prisioners just for fun, the closest thing was the purge, she did encountered someone who wanted revenge for it, an apology would work? alright, when the horde actually showed that to her or the alliance in general?
and we can debate in her way to apology another time, for example, feeling shame for what she did in the purge is what lead her to change her mind about dismantling the horde.
Would that bring back those who the horde killed in their multiple mass murders?
Horde players don’t have to accept her because she is not going to be a neutral character.
Yeah because we, alliance players are so happy to be forced to be on another horde civil war.
She doesn’t really have to be accepted by half of the playerbase thats the whole point of having different characters for each faction.
And she doesn’t really have to be accepted by the entire alliance either, because thats the point of having different characters in the first place.
Well believe me when i say that i would rather ignore canon and just live in my fantasy world where the mere horde existence is not an insult to half the playerbase.
What i mean is that if it was for me, none of those would have happened and i would just choose to ignore it.
But sadly, that isn’t the canon.
The same reason why jaina cannot be onmipresent to control her people that wanted to keep attacking the horde during the cata era and throw away the peace that she was working on.
it is just impossible, She in the end payed the consequences with her city destroyed. Rasthakan payed with his city sacked, fleet destroyed and him dead. i said again, he shouln’t have died.
that is not true because they attacked before bfa even started.
i guess that there is no point keep arguing about this, is clear that your own bias is blinding you.
Are you even reading what i am saying? Nobody in the alliance has more reasons to fight the horde? fair enough, then genn and the alliance is free for killing rastha! good deal sir.
i am glad that we agree on something.
we can just forget about everything!
i literally don’t care about arathi, what i want is gilneas and teldrassil back.
you know, because i am actually a worgen player.
Well if you noticed my post i was actually talking about how horde players demonize them one way or another for little to no reason.
like, you are doing it right now.
and thus proving my point that horde players demonize alliance characters for sport. sometimes, justified, yes, but many others times they take it into extremes that i can’t simply understand.
Ah there it is! the toxicity! do you enjoy rubbing it in my face?
“haha stupid alliance is just a punching bag furduhurd!” That is the exact mentality that i am talking about. and it came again from a horde player! imagine my surprise (sarcasm).
is not my fault that blizzard decided to turn the horde into these maniac monsters that can’t be 5 seconds without destroying something the same way is not my fault that i just say things the way they are.
i saw the horde side, there is still that draenie pyromaniac.
Lower tolerance to conflicting opinions? i am literally debating with you someone who is, at the very least extremely troll biased (i hope that doesn’t offend you) that doesn’t seem to care at all about the alliance or their players, but here we are having a conversation.
is simple, if you don’t provoke me on purpose then i am totally capable of having a normal conversation.
if you don’t then i will just assume that you are like the rest and i will answer accordingly.
Your mistake is assuming that she will be “neutral” simply because she decided to stop fighting for a while to deal with azshara and the corrupt warchief.
or what, is lor’themar/thalisra a neutral character simply because they did the same?
-Having stuff in BfA that many Alliance players didn’t like doesn’t invalidate Horde players talking about the stuff they didn’t like.
-Just because she isn’t as evil as they have made Sylvanas doesn’t maker her good. It doesn’t make the things she has done go away.
-I have to say, I’ve seen the vague reference to “the Horde” used a lot to conflate the guilty with the innocent.
-Yes, if Blizzard doesn’t plan for her to be other than a villain to Horde players, then this isn’t a problem.
I don’t think it’s fair to be upset at Jaina ignoring the Horde and placing the blame only on Sylvanas. That’s a criticism of the entire Alliance sans Night Elves, not Jaina herself
The only reason people did not like Jaina was because she was always advocating for the Horde.
Alliance players actually liked Jaina when she took a firm stance against them. But now… she reverted back to her old self for the Horde player’s benefit once again.
Literally none of this is true. Thrall just names a few atrocities, and he NEVER says it is the Horde’s fault. As for the Alliance character’s vague reference is because Blizzard has never allowed the Horde player experience material loss by Alliance hands. Everything the Horde has “lost” was directly caused by their own people.
They are.
When Jaina saved Baine she should not have conversed with Thrall. She should have immediately left because there is no value in what Thrall or Saurfang have to say.
The Horde are no in position to decide what is acceptable and what is not. The Horde should count their lucky stars Alliance characters are still willing to tolerate their existence.
PS. You never answered Etheldald. What has the Alliance done to the Horde that even remotely requires an acknowledgement?
i don’t think that i ever said that.
Why she would be evil at all when her actions directly saved the world on multiple ocassions and she, always wanted to do the right thing, and yes, she has made mistakes, but it doesn’t make her evil, it makes her human and flawed. I.E when her emotions went out of control in dala but thats about it. Can we really say that she is evil because she believed that she was punishing traitors ?
i think i know where this is from, from rexxar “she has gone too far killed too many” (at a point when sylvanas killed far more horde than her).
Well something that should always happen is, if i want to help horde characters,i would play horde, and viceversa, it is as simple as that.
i don’t think that she is going to be neutral simply because at some point she is willing to work for a common goal because under that measure, everyone is neutral.
And then again,she didn’t destroyed a city full of civillians, she certainly almost did, but that didn’t happened. hell she even feels shame for it. i wonder why she had mercy at that point, that was probably one of her biggest mistakes. maybe teldrassil would be still standing.
Makes me happy? I have no personal stake in it. Just how it is.
Cool, so again, you agree with me.
You’re using a lot of weasel phrases between ‘being evil’ and ‘Sylvanas would have a reckoning’.
I disagree. A lot has changed rather awkwardly.
Depends on what you mean by beaten. Illidan was killed, he still ended up a ‘hero’ or at least ally. Heck, Maiev was a villain, she was never really beaten.
False dichotomy.
I don’t see any real reason, the character is dead and adding some more whiteness wouldn’t really bring any real benefit.
It’s your premise, not mine:
Plot demanded his death since he was firmly against his people joining the Horde.
Does it really matter? Horde fans had plenty of notice that crap was gonna hit the fan as long as Sylvanas was around. They ignored it to their detriment.
Kosak himself once said Sylvanas was going to have a reckoning. I’ll admit the evil part is all mine. It is hard not to consider everything Sylvanas has done as traditional evil, regardless of her true motives.
The devs. constant talk about the Cycle of Hatred. Hell, if you want it would be child’s play to make a parellel of most, is not all, major story beats that happened in WoW to what has happened to the RTS.
Now who is saying useless things.
Considering being a warmonger and evolving into a proto Anduin is part of his character and eliminating it will only make him more nonsensical than what he is will only lead to disaster and much trouble for a character that is pretty much done.
Besides you know well BFA exposed at most this kink the writers has for the alliance, despite it cost a lot of souls from their civlians
First of all, again, things that an Alliance player don’t like don’t make things Horde players don’t like invalid.
Second, what the Horde leader literally says is; “I wish I could change it all, Cairne, Garrosh, Theramore. It feels like a did everything wrong.” What do you think this means, that he happened to notice a few bad things that just happen to have happened? He is commenting, as_the_leader_of_Horde on things the_Horde did, and telling Jaina it was “wrong”. And even Jaina takes it as an admission of guilt.
If this is only “listing a few attrocites” to you. I just don’t know what to say. We aren’t going to agree.
But you know, if it was so trivial, then I’m sure you would have no objection to Jaina saying… "I wish I could change Dalaran. I feels like I did everything wrong. " and having a Horde player assure her she is not the only one with blood on their hands?
Thirdly, I find it hard to believe that the only complaint you have ever seen about Jaina is that “she advocates” for the Horde. I have to say that almost all the criticism from Horde players hasn’t been this at all.
Nor do I think you will be shocked to know that I don’t think “the Horde” (again , ageneral term that conflates the guilty with the innocent) should grovel before the Alliance.
As far as your comment on Etheldald. It seemed clear he knew what I was talking about and was just throwing out a list of condemnations of the Horde (which have been argued before) intermingled with a straw man (that I think she would have apologized the Sylvanas loyalists attacking the whole party.
Regarding what was in Etheldald’s post, I mean I find it hard to believe that you guys don’t know that a lot of Horde players don’t agree with a half dozen things in that assertion so what is the purpose. Another Interminable “Jaina did nothing wrong” thread? Why? To drag down the point I making into a mire is details that have been argued over and over, and have no chance of bringing anything new to the discussion? The fact is that a large section of the player base don’t agree and their view is as valid as yours.
[quote=“Etheldald-ragnaros, post:131, topic:479858, full:true”]
i don’t think that i ever said that. [/quote]
You respond to a point about what Horde players don’t like with things Alliance players don’t like. And, in our last paragraph, you respond to issue with Jaina with something Sylvanas did, as if that somehow made Jaina a better person? I don’t think it is reading too much to think that was intended as some sort of rebuttal.
But, if you want me to agree that there are things that there were things that were bad for the Alliance? Sure.
She killed innocents. That is not just “making mistakes”. As your own Rexar quote says “she has gone too far and killed to many” Nor do agree with you characterization of Dalaran. But do you now know that a lot of Horde players don’t? Because I have to admit if feels like bait for yet another in a long line of “Jaina did nothing wrong” threads. As I said, either you respect that a large part of the player base (who deserve and enjoyable story as much as you) don’t agree, or you don’t, rehashing numerous interminable threads won’t change anyting.
But my comments about how the term “the Horde” is used wasn’t reference to the Rexxar quote. It was to all those threads where people use the phrase to use bad things that some Horde characters did to justify the idea that the Alliance should get to do whatever they want to anyone who is a Horde character.
And I have say, the fact that Blizzard had her there supporting Andiun’s right to give orders to Horde soldiers one the basis of it being a for “everyone” does say to me Blizzard sees her as now someone that Hordeplaying will be presented with as a leader.
So you say it is fine that Blizzard is lying to new WoW players that play the Horde AND your saying that that is ok. That is bullcrap.
You say we are getting what we are signing up for. I showed you EXACTLY what a new WoW player signs up for when they pick the Horde so you saying we are getting what we sign up for IS BULLCRAP. They want to make the Horde evil? Fine. Then they should at least be honest about it. The fact your pretty much excusing them for it and saying a new Horde player ‘should just know better’ makes any claim that your viewpoint is fair total rubbish.
That blurb on the WoW website is also lore. Stop cherry picking whatever justifies your viewpoint.
And Horde players are sick of being LIED to, something you seem to think is ok.
You are so in the minority in this forum it is amazing. Your just fortunate that 90% of the WoW community don’t give a crap about the lore. Stop telling people they are wrong for perfectly justified gripes and before you say you aren’t, you do constantly.
The WoW manual also stated that all Eredar are evil demons.
I swear I have seen you make the exact same comment in regards to the Horde that Pheandra made. Possibly back in MoP? I posted a lot less then as I generally just discussed lore with my friends.
Ignored? Exactly what say did we have in the matter? Are you suggesting all Horde players who aren’t happy should just quit because as far as I can tell that is the only option we have beyond taking issue with it. We didn’t ignore anything. Stop pretending we had a choice.
So your telling NE players that they should accept what happened to them in BfA because they know that getting butchered and upstaged by humans is what they signed up for when they chose to play NEs? Wow, your a class act. Well if your ever unhappy with any aspect of the story you have pretty much shot dead any excuse you have to complain.
They are not lying no more then say Bravely Default made me think Airy was a good guy because she was on the front cover.
You are playing a faction compose of undead, orcs, trolls etc. Races commonly associated with being evil. If that wasnt your first hint you might up being portayed negatively I dont what else would. And considering Blizzard gave all of us a manual with a brief history of WoW all the more should people not have the excuse to be ignorant.
Well, your attempting to cherry pick as well. We have plenty of lore showing how monsterous the Horde was/is. When it actually occured acting suprise is foolish.
No one got lied to. You literally choose to ignore every major lore build up for years.
I have also never said anyone should stop complaining but at the same time, I think ignore the reality of how WoW has operated since its inception seems foolish.
Eh, if anything its precisely because I complained alot especially back in Cata and waited that I actually experience what I wanted in WoW that I am willing to see what the heck Blizzard’s long game is. You have the same option given to me before by some Horde fans, quit or wait and see what the heck happens to WoW. The third option is to keep stewing in your unhappiness for the game while still paying a company that presumably making you unhappy.
Does it matter to be forthright if you agree in a discussion? Yes. That’s part of honest conversation.
And despite all their talk, we still have numerous awkward changes. The way they’ve treated the Horde in Warcraft 1, 2, and 3, plus after. Certain characters like Arthas and Illidan. Various retcons. Things change constantly. Certain cliche repetition doesn’t erase that.
A fallacy isn’t a useless thing to point out, so still you, it seems. I can elaborate on what a false dichotomy is if you need.