Absolutely.
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Until you realize a good chunk of the forsaken leveling experience(maybe more like a good chunk of forsaken lore /screentime) was about all the nasty little things the forsaken were up to. The Forsaken as as a race started with betrayal and Sylvanas was never one to remain uncontrovertial. If you didnt expect or at least thought the possibility she would end up a villain and potentially drag the whole Horde with her you were lying to yourself.
Why? Apart from honoring a blood oath to a Warchief who lied to them until the truth was no longer able to be hidden, why?
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You had me until this. If it isn’t apparent to Horde members after Ogrimmar that they got played like a fiddle by Sylvanas they really are eating-rocks dumb.
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Hmm? i use canon lore from both the books tides of war and chronicles, that are more recent that the cata quest that, btw is a complete mess.
And even with the examples you give is the same because the zandalari did attacked both horde and alliance. in cata and mop. with zul under rasthakan blessing.
not sure why you choose to ignore it.
Yes i know zul was a traitor, yes i know why they did it, and yes i know that talanji was going in a diplomatic mission. but that doesn’t erase what they did… or does it? because you are only seeing it from your perspective. to try to paint your side as the morally correct, but the thing is, they aren’t.
oh i don’t think that they wanted to attack the alliance but they were going to give their fleet to the horde, like sylvanas says. after they saved them from g’ahuun.
They also helped the horde with storing the abyssal scepter in their vaults.
What does it matter? they made a deal to save their kingdom, the horde helped with their civil war stuff, the blood trolls problem and he was going to give them the fleet, that was going to happen.
Maybe the alliance wouln’t attack if the horde wasn’t in zuldazar at all.
Nazgrim? the guy who betrayed the horde ?
it seems to me that we helped to get rid of a traitor.
if balance was important they should have destroyed it by third parties, now the balanced is broken and we need to strike back.
We didn’t destroyed undercity either.
i am sorry, when the alliance killed a horde leader that left them leardeless?.
i don’t want to colonize the map what i want is just recover what was lost.
exterminating the horde would be just a plus.
Funny, when an alliance member does something similar, horde players sees him/her as satan himself and blame the entire alliance. in a desperate attempt to feel justified in the s*** they do.
All what i am saying is that rasthakan shares blame for not caring what zul was actually doing because after all, it was his kingdom.
Again, he didn’t needed o die. that is extreme.
Here is the thing, is not a few. like, i even have seen yourself being exactly like that.
You, that this time are you being civilized at some point in the past you were toxic as well, and like i don’t really blame you, i understand if things can become heated.
The only reason why i am is because someone provoked me first. is as simple as that.
You see? now i am being civilized because so far you haven’t provoked me.
i can separate real life from fiction, but i think that i know the type of players that both factions have.
They never read the forums anyway, is not like it actually matters what we say.
they don’t seem to listen to feedback at all.
Then don’t. nobody is pointing you with a gun to do it.
So okay, your source is from a horde quest that thinks that jaina broke the treaty but then we don’t have any evidence at all that it was she the one who ordered such attack, like she who literally sacrified her father for peace and tried that both factions stopped the wars.
Even going more further her own people wanted to take her out from power because she wasn’t attacking. this is what i refer when i mean that yes, she was responsible for them the same way rasthakan was for the trolls under zul.
Paying the consequences of the actions of their people.
and is also why rasthakan should have survived. dead he can learn nothing.
Because i can ask you the same question.
Do you really think that jaina wanted to attack the horde during cataclysm? or it was because she, as a member of the alliance was obligated to help her allyes being attacked by the horde?.
A shame that blizzard killed rastha, oh well.
Well i am aware of this, i think is a case of:
Both sides were left devastated, just in different ways.
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You said what we signed up for. That is what Blizzard told us we are signing up for. So either your wrong or your claiming that it is ok that Blizzard is lying to people who chose to play horde.
Most of the Horde playerbase don’t go or see the Forsaken intro. Tell me how someone who creates a Tauren player ‘signs up for’ it. Point out one moment in the introduction for a Tauren player where they are told ‘your part of the Morally dark faction’.
You say this because it is what you want the Horde to be and the Horde identity shouldn’t be defined by what Alliance players want it to be.
I am merely pointing out that it is hardly a one sided thing and honestly I don’t think it is a good policy to wish the same treatment on the other side, particularly since it means the reverse as well. Anyone who thinks their side of the deal is worse off almost certainly underestimates how screwed the other side got.
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Well i never said that it was just one sided.
i think that at this point there is not going back we should just accept that the divide is too strong and we will never truly agree.
Simply because we care about different things and want different directions.
i will NEVER accept that this becomes world of hordecraft because we also pay for the game. i don’t pay so the horde can destroy the cities of my side and their characters just to fill their need for destruction and irrational hate.
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Ignorance is not some sort of excuse. Especially considering Forsaken lore has been at the for front of one of the most important moment of WoW history, the Wrathgate. Your free to have hoped Sylvanas or Garrosh wouldn’t have turned out the way they did, but it did not and your wish will never change that fact.(short of Blizzard retconning it but I digress)
You have the warcraft manual stating: Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they will go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. Again, you ignore the lore and all the foreshadowing at your own peril.
Wrong, this is what Blizzard wanted the Horde to be. Certainly I wanted it to occur and it did. But all I have done is make casual observation over the years of what would happen to the Horde and the vague outlines more or less line up, if not necessarily all the details.
Again, we have entire quest chains showing how dubious certain elements of the Horde have been. To a point where you as a Horde player can poison a Stormwind human trying to warn you the Forsaken were up to no good. Heck, you can even see a Forsaken who defected because he no longer believed in Sylvanas.
Just look at BFA and Horde’s history and there is absolutely zero evidence as to why the Tauren would not be just as blood thirsty as the rest of the Horde.
The Horde is an existential threat to Azeroth and the Alliance no matter what kind of figurehead you put on top.
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Baine banished people who actively wanted revenge. The tauren as a people have remain largely passive and prefer to defend lands they already own.
While it is true they could be a threat, it is an unlikely one and more importantly just because something can threaten you it doesnt mean trying to destroy it would be the best answer(see how we let the Lich King continue to exist as an example).
Maybe, maybe not. Ultimately however the Alliance should focus on the “greater good” which for me, not continuing a global war when there are more pressing things to deal with, namely Sylvanas.
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I was using his warped logic against him with justifying invasions and preventive attacks based in hollow reasons
Considering how much has been retconned from both stories I would suggest you to take the lore from the game where it matters.
Ok now I realize you didn’t watched any of the evidence I gave you and just went straight to reply me with your rhetoric again, not a surprise
You are literally ignoring a piece of Lore narrated by Cho in how things happened
And they kicked for a prolongued time where even Nathanos starts to complain that gaining their trust is hard
So? Dalaran teleported the magical bell to Darnassus despite the first mentioned was a neutral nation during the conflict and handling that mcgufin to the alliance would be considered a break of said stance in the real world but in warcraft universe it’s never treated as such thing which I guess it must apply to all the nations
Not a traitor, he followed his superior like a good soldier and still counts as a horde leader being killed by the alliance which the Horde hasn’t had that honor yet.
Strike back to what? Nobody in the alliance even cares to go to war in-universe with the exception of Genn and Tyrande and they are more interested in Sylvanas
So for your happiness you need to kill Horde leaders in a raid? Not going to happen unless you are willing to sacrifice the Alliance roster too
Literally this has never happened as the writers takes great pains to make any alliance aggression to be justfied with making the Horde do something really nasty to keep “faction fantasy”
Heck Greymane was praised for both sides during Legion
I am sorry but you are wrong in this statement
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/thank-you-for-backtracking-on-the-purge-squads-blizzard/46745
You say this but in this same thread you also comment this:
And also you have a lot of historial of being toxic even without provocation, like in the thread you said you were quiting because Blizzard didn’t gave the Alliance the wins they wanted.
You can’t throw a rock to someone and pretend innocence, that is not how it works and frankly I can’t take the word of someone who lash his anger on other players because he can’t directly attack the writers that wrote a storyline that wasn’t on his liked.
Lots of people are in the same vein and decided to quit instead of just being annoying, harassing people at many fandom forums(Mmo champion)
The Horde (Including Baine and his Tauren) waged a war of extinction on the mere threat of the Alliance.
No sir. Baine is as much as a threat as any other warchief before him.
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if we are discussing lore we cannot afford to ignore actual canon coming from the novels. we can’t just pretend that the novels don’t exist and that retcons didn’t happened from more recent sources.
if you want to take from the game thats on you.
i am not ignoring it, i know why and how it happened.
You are trying to tell me that the alliance attack wasn’t justified because rastha/talanji did what they did out of necessity.
and i am simply telling you that he, as leader of his people had responsability on how the rest of the world saw his nation due to his actions. that is why i bringed the previous example. but in any case is all really pointless because i already said that he shouln’t have died for it.
Are you going to ignore that sylvanas herself claims that they have the zandalari fleet in their hands now?.
Look , i didn’t played the horde side but i know what happens.
Dalaran only stance was simply avoid the horde get weapons of mass destruction because it happens to be that the horde is an actual existencial threat for the world. whats the job of the kirin tor? protect the world.
The moment they decided to help theramore is the moment that 1 ) they breaked their neutrality and 2)sided with the people that actually doesn’t want to destroy the world.
The same can be said with the mcguffin used by the horde in their genocidal campaign to end all life with sylvanas during bfa.
“leader” is a strong word for just high ranking officer.
He sided with the guy who was trying to kill all other races minus orc, you know, including trolls i would say he got what he deserved.
And i mean, we kinda have examples of ally characters going evil and then being killed in a raid.
“nobody in the alliance”
“genn and tyrande”
i guess worgen and nelfs aren’t in the alliance?.
well it happens that i actually like these races considering that my character is a worgen. What, i am not in the alliance?.
maybe you entered the conversation a little late but my point during all of these is that after teldrassil the horde doesn’t deserve a big kill or anything at all at the cost of the alliance because we didn’t get one either at all.
Enough. then someone replied to me that they do because of rasthakan something that i find…as incorrect.
Like i said before, i only want to recover what was lost. but if we kill horde in the process i wouldn’t complain.
what…? never happened? not even once? we don’t see the demonization of ally characters taken into extremes? not only current but also from the past?
Don’t you do the same with danath and alleria? You never once demonized them for their roles in the past wars? and those two are just minor examples of what i mean. Garithos,daelin,arthas,genn,jaina,tyrande ect.
Of course it is, the alliance is not the one trying to destroy the entire planet in needless wars.
Yes maybe it has or had some questionable members but is not like the alliance ideal is to start killing for no reason, not the current at least.
i mean, i wish this wasn’t true but i can’t ignore the lore presented to me by blizzard.
that seems to be more trying to fix a mistake more than anything because the core things are still there, ally side it tells you that they just want to scare them and horde side we have a pyromaniac for no reason. something seems wrong there.
is not like they listened to the feedback in darkshore.
exactly in that same quote i say that i know what kind of players both factions have, both have the actual good people and the ones who likes being toxic, i happened to find most of the toxicity in the horde,maybe they don’t even realize it and i don’t really blame them for it but that is just how my personal experience is. and basically what pushed me more to the alliance.
So what do i do? giving a taste of their own medicine.
Right now we are having a good conversation without either of us being toxic to eachother, but know this, the moment i feel toxicity coming from you i will respond properly, the good thing is that there doesn’t seem to be a need for that.
i am just explaining my stance.
Good day 
I was playing this character in Stormsong. They had a place where a Horde force shows up and the plucky Alliance overcomes the bad guys. It was only the kind of thing you would expect, but good little part of the plot. But I couldn’t think of anything like that on the Horde side.
The Alliance leveling zones have been fixing problems and improving things. While Horde zones were attempts to stop Zuul and G’hun, each of which fails.
For those players, it feels to me there is a view that they have to make Horde players give something up. It feels like it could range from simply the mindset that everything is a zero sum game to misguided jelousy, to simply wanting to “get back” against “the Horde”. It does lead to situations where Alliance players tell Horde players they are wrong in how much Horde players enjoyed the expansion.
The big problem I have is simply that they didn’t have her give any sort of apology or even just remorse for things she has done to the Horde. They didn’t need to make her evil, or do anything other bad to her. They just needed to understand that what they did has a “Jaina did nothing wrong” feel that seems totally validating the POV of Alliance players over that of Horde players. If Horde players are going to accept her now as a someone who will be a leader of both sides in neutral content, as they did at the end there, but without a hint of remorse, it feels like she is being shoved down the throats of Horde players.
Now I’m sure that some will insist that she really didn’t do anything wrong. That is an opinion that does not have wide acceptance with half the player base. They can make her a character that can be acceptable in content for both sides or they can go with the “did nothing wrong” meme. They can’t do both.
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Nothing in your post was relevant to the fact that Garrosh’s war in Cataclysm was a separate war from the one Varian declared in Wrath of the Lich King.
Indeed, as you pointed out, hollow reasons the Horde believed in for the War of the Thorns.
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So you are agreeing with me that the intro was just a blurb that didn’t capture everything, thanks. Because everything after this doesn’t relate to that.
Well literally everything is possible in the story, Zerde. That’s a useless consideration. But you’ve changed your phrasing from incorrect to useless, so I guess that’s a step forwards.
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Excuse me?
The Horde has done zero action or have ANY remorse for what they have done. Why is it on Alliance/Jaina to apologize for anything done “”"“to”""" the Horde.
If anything Jaina did not do enough to the Horde. The very fact that that Horde characters can even converse with Alliance characters at all is a blow to the face.
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I would agree on that statement but considering how books are retconned at every opportunity, I will take their lore very carefully. Chronicles established a lot of lore that has been retconned (Shadowlands being a mirrow of the Emerald Dream, Titans souls fade away from existance, etc) and let’s not go with certain novels like BTS and Wolf’s Hearth
And how he can do that exactly? Because Azeroth doesn’t have internet, press or even send representatives to speak out against the actions of a rebel group because they end up dead(Forsaken diplomatics) or go to prison without a trial or even some talks as we saw with Talanji.
Besides literally all races these groups of renegades and no one takes care of it(Scarlet Crusaders, Cult of Ragnaros, Druids of the Flame, etc) and often left to the player because we need something to kill
Indeed it was pointless but I just argue here the invasion was totally idiotic since Zandalar only acted once the Alliance was in the shores of Nazmir, had they waited for Saurfang to build his rebellion a little longer, things would had been less bloody.
I don’t see Genn or Tyrande having dialogues on getting their lands back, they just want justice against Sylvanas from the dialogues between Jaina and Anduin.
The alliance got Darkshore, very highly Ashenvale and conquered Arathi which is a bigger gain than Southshore, literally the Alliance got more lands in the long run while the Horde only got a sassy sermon of how naughty we are.
Literally there is not more land for the Alliance to gain that didn’t have at vanilla
Show me just 1 proof from the game or any of the current books where it portrays evily some alliance hero because since the start of WoW, the alliance was always the white bread faction.
Should we praise a guy called Trollbane with his almost zealot desire to kill Trolls?
Because by your own logic then people shouldn’t demonize Sylvanas back in Vanilla and Cataclysm when she was in a killing spree of humans.
But I feel this goes in circles in your warped opinion
Yes I know, their sole existance is to be a punching bag, I don’t need to be remained that Blizzard doesn’t even want to try to make them interesting with adding different facets of morality and justify any of their aggression with making the Horde do a worse one at the expense of their population(which at this point is tiresome)
The alliance can’t target Vulperas anymore and the totems just use the spell of fear instead of burn them. Too much work to be a small fix which wouldn’t happen if nobody complained on that.
No, what you have is a lower tolerance to conflicting opinions with the “red team” like it was some competition of soccer and this return us to square 1 where you just put “most are toxic because I feel they mock me” which is a very inmature approach from your part.
I am not saying there aren’t toxic people, anyone can see that but you just seem to target them out of spite rather than tried to do a normal conversation/debate.
Same
I am just pointing out to you that the treaty you speak only exist in the Shattering Novel while Chronicles doesn’t mention it and speaks as conflict just cold a little before jumping into a massive war with Garrosh (you can go and check it in Chronicles if you don’t believe me)
Well the warcraft screenplayers are at the same level of the average comic writer, asking above of that for a war is too much for their brain.
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That Chronicle doesn’t mention doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. For example:
Same I imagine applies to any novels.
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But still depends on the case as Danuser says and from what we saw, retcons are incoming for the next years in how those wars started and motivations