Jaina's Arc in BFA. Full circle or Properly Developed?

yes i am aware of this and at the same time it is my impression that horde players enjoy the suffering of others, a good portion at least. it is sickening, tbh.
There is a point where you can only fight fire with fire.

Not really, they did helped the horde after war of thorns. i often hear that theramore was a legit target because it helped the alliance, if that is true, then so is dazaralor.
After all is basically the same scenario, a leader that is forced into action but then payed the consequences, this is why i would have liked that rasthakan lived.

But going back on track of the conversation, i speak more from my perspective as ally player i would not accept that the horde can destroy our cities and kill our characters and face no consequences at ALL.

Is not fair for us, we also pay for the game, so why the horde can kill and destroy our stuff but we can do nothing to them?.

The alliance never really killed a horde character, the closest thing we got was rasthakan. one of the last guys that we would want to kill.
and sorry but you can’t just compare rasthakan with jaina, her counterpart would be thrall, you said it yourself, she has a bigger plot armor.

She hoped for the best, but i think that she knew that wasn’t going to happen, So what did she did? Slow the horde army returning just in case. and it worked.

Capturing rasthakan and forcing him to surrender could have worked indeed.
it was rasthakan who decided to fight and abuse bwonsandi powers.
A power that, btw the alliance didn’t knew he had.

That’s fine is not really your fault, but in the end, we are at the opposite side, we want different things, we like different characters and we certanly don’t think the same, i fear that we will never really agree.
You know, i too would like to find common ground, but the poison and toxicity that bfa did to the game, and the community itself cannot be undone so easily.

And helped the horde before it… so…

i don’t think you understand what happened, i don’t blame you blizzard presentantion always has been garbage.
But i think the point was to show that the alliance doesn’t want to do anything for victory because otherwise we would really be the same garbage that we are fighting. she didn’t say that she wanted peace then… simply that she didn’t wanted to press now… because after that the alliance is at the verge of victory until azshara does her thing.

not sure if you noticed that this is how blizzard writtes.

Remember teldrassil? it was the same.
The attack was supposed to end the war before it started.
What happened?
The exact opposite.

that is so dumb and it doesn’t surprise me that this comes from the writters that writtes for the horde that tries to demonize the alliance.
The alliance was never really interested in conquering the place, only to give it a good blow.

Maybe the zandalari shouldn’t have attacked the alliance twice before bfa even started so maybe the alliance wouln’t have captured talanji who was travelling with zul you know, the guy behind these attacks.

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I didn’t say I think it was justified. I said that the Horde probably thought the Alliance attack on Zul’dazar was justified.

There’s a certain point where you’re no different, yes. You’re advocating for people to have a worse time, knowing they empathize with your issues. Real people. While at the same time wanting to take joy from NPC suffering.

Just be honest about it, if you just want to be bad. And play Horde or something.

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You are 100 % correct, is not pretty, is not good. but i have no other choice.
i do know that there is a few around there that are actually good people.
What about the rest?. are we going to pretend they don’t exist?

That what i said is not correct? those who enjoy with the suffering of others?
No,what they deserve is only ruin. They and the horde can and should rot in hell.

i would not play horde even if i got paid.
i don’t want to be bad, but i will never accept being target of mockery of others.
Who do you think i am, a punchbag?.

i am sorry if i am a little at the defensive, but being an ally fan can lead you into this.
it is sad that it is because the other playable faction.

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Well the people who care about the story are a minority. And I think those who enjoy suffering are as well. Trying to look for something everyone can enjoy doesn’t involve taking them seriously as a big thing.

It happens. But we can drop it at that. Sounds like some other people are getting mad and dishonestly mud flinging because of the discussion.

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Well the problem is that usually to not to say always, something good for the horde means something bad for alliance I.E killing ally characters or ruining them one way or another for them.

So is actually really hard for me trying to find a common ground on that kind of front when in essence they are trying to push for something that actively impacts on my experience on a negative way. i can’t accept that.

Dismantling it with what? She blew her wad at the Battle of Lordaeron which apparently cost her resources that she could not renew since the arcane floating battleship trick hasn’t been used since.

She does have her limits and if you take close look at her face and skin, what she pulled off at Lordaeron seems to have come at a cost to her being… she’s a lot more gaunt in appearance so what she did was probably powered by her very lifeforce and would likely kill her if she tried it again.

Um… Jaina uses her flying flagship blasts several times in her raid encounter, and is perfectly fine after.

I think there’s plenty of common ground to find things both Horde and Alliance players can enjoy if it isn’t built from a root of antagonism. Just ignore the minority who just want evil. Those players exist on the Alliance too (tend to be Human Paladins), but can be disregarded.

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Maybe before of BfA.
Now? yeah… it is all poisoned now.

we are at a dead end. any further damage on the alliance is unacceptable, tbh.

"oh but jaina is evil because she killed rastha "-saved the world multiple times
“remember when genn attacked in stormheilm! he must pay!” -saved the world from sylvanas
“anduin is as guilty as them!”- tries peace at every turn.
“what? why tyrande is angry? we just destroyed her city and genocided her people! how dares she!”

That is what i mean when i say that they don’t deserve it. at least the alliance isn’t as rotten as their faction. because if they do, oh boy i would be angry.

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Having played that raid while she’s using her flagship it certainly was floating the water, not in the air. And she’s not pummeling Drazz’a’lor with her arcane cannons either.

I’m talking about these attacks:

Meh, Jaina is just in the next cycle of iterations regarding her clear self insert character development (and yes, I´m serious. That “woman” is not even a character, she´s but Golden´s self insert -inherited the “white hair” of the misterious ToW warlock and all-).

All I ask is to FINALLY be ridden of her on my Horde gameplay -I´m frankly sick of having to deal with her 10th rate drama queenish narrative (and no, I never felt bad about her and Theramore cause only a moron let´s onse side of war make use of her stuff and afterwards complains when the other side destroys it, period).

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Thing is Theramoore was already being used to siege other Horde settlements in Cataclysm after the war broke out in Wrath of the Lich King during the invasion of Undercity, in fact Theramoore sends an expedition (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Northwatch_Expeditionary_Unit)to attack settlements in Durotan

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_War_of_Northwatch_Aggression

You probably just use the lore from the Novel Tides of War which is a big retcon of the questline in Cataclysm but nope, Theramoore was already an active member attacking the Horde after Varian declared War as you can see with the links above.

Zandalar in another hand just wanted help and went to the Horde for it at request of Talanji to clean some big mess that was being brewed in Nazmir and literallly the only instance they let them use the fleet is after G’huun death and when the Alliance launched the attack on Nazmir which is a big amount of time.

If you really think Zandalar wanted to attack the Alliance with their fleet, you have to post proof instead of just headcanons and in-game events that are likely non canon.
A fair mention Rastakhan actually threatens the Horde to use the fleet against them if anything were to happend to his daughter which by itself tells you how much willing they were to work with the Horde in the first place

Nazgrim says Hi and

What stuff? Cataclysm was to field the zones for both factions to make leveling equal and Teldrassil was compesated with Undercity blow up and a playable race being left leaderless.

The fact you want to exterminate the Horde and colonize 80% of the map will not happen because it’s not equal, simple as that.

I kinda agree the writers are derps, making the Horde go for this arc again is so tiresome.

So because the group of Zul did some shaddy stuff does that mean all Zandalar is to blame? Despite pretty much everyone hated him and saw him as a coward to flee?

Rastari guards:

https://i.imgur.com/i7wbnw1.jpg

The Docksmater:

  • Dockmaster Cobo says: Bah! Cursed things! De only thing sea stalks mean to me are good sailors not coming home and cargo sitting at de bottom of de sea.

  • Dockmaster Cobo says: He was wrong. Oh dere was damage, but Zul fled, with our fleet, and started a few wars. Those of us who stayed, endured. We rebuilt. Because DAT is what it means to be Zandalari.

Source: https://www.wowhead.com/npc=126009/dockmaster-cobo

Oh and just in case you bring Rastakhan give him his blessing, this is what he truly did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8nmuFTuzWc

Note he just gave him ships to search for lands to settle.

However this is what concerns me

Are you seriously generalizing the Horde playerbase in based to the opinion of a few and in reponse to that you lash out your anger on them and try to be toxic as possible just because the writing team of this game made a storyline that wasn’t of your like and some mean people?

Dude seriously, don’t you realize you are making yourself look as some rabid lunatic that can’t seperate real life with fiction?

For the worst you are giving the perfect excuse to the writing team to why they shouldn’t listen to their audience if they behave like this. Seriously if you can’t keep some level of sanity to post civilized, then you shouldn’t be here.

I will give you a pro tip here: Maturity is not reserved for fruits only

You can have your own opinion but with this approach of yours, I doubt it’s even worthy to reply any further or even taken seriously aside of some comical RP Thread.

Literally in universe nobody gives a second though of this which shows Blizzard doesn’t want to handle anything grey, especially if taints the image of the Alliance as the white bread faction that doesn’t for their civilians.

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Considering how quickly there were Alliance players trying to paint Thalyssra as some kind of selfish monster the moment the Nightborne joined the horde, I would say that applies to both factions.

Plus you can’t blame Horde players for looking for a Antagonist when Blizzard fails to provide one. WoW is full of fallen heroes. Lets not forget Sylvanas was a honored hero once too.

I bring this up because I find often many posters aren’t willing to consider both sides of the situation when coming up with solutions. I have never claimed the Horde has it worse. It has it just as bad but different. I also never advocate for a solution that screws over the other faction for the sake of my preferred faction, something I see many alliance posters advocate. I don’t claim there are Horde players who aren’t as bad but I can’t speak for them and I will often disagree with them.

Legion we just got left out. BFA is a faction conflict where the two factions are AGAINST each other. That makes it TOTALLY true for BFA and EVERY faction conflict situation we end up in.

I always find it funny how quickly players who are take issue with how their faction is treated are to dismiss the issues players of the other faction have. Again I ask, who was the Antagonist for Horde players in this faction conflict? I will tell you, it wasn’t an Alliance character.

“The indomitable Horde is driven by unity. They are fervent keepers of freedom and hope, relentlessly opposed to any who threaten these ideals, including the stringent Alliance.”

  • WoW website

So Zerde, where in that does it say we are signing up for the ‘morally darker’ faction. You keep telling us we should just accept it is what we signed up for when Blizzard itself constantly contradicts this. It is a Bullcrap argument to justify your view that the Horde should get shoved in the villain role because that is where you want it to be. The Horde’s story and identity shouldn’t be defined by what Alliance fans want it to be.

The only Alliance base they attacked was a small fort in Stranglethorn which the Trolls could justifiably argue was invasion of their territory. Respecting sovereignty of troll lands as generally been very optional in both the Horde and Alliance’s history.

I would personally argue I have frequently shown empathy for how screwed the Alliance story is but lets not pretend many Alliance players show much empathy about this either. It is a common trait across ALL sections of the WoW playerbase.

If you want Horde players to learn how it feels for Alliance players, are you ok with the opposite happening too? Cause personally I don’t think the Alliance playerbase deserves that. However I think you would find quite a few Horde players willing to trade.

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Incorrect. Theramore got involved after Garrosh’s invasion of the Night Elves’ land. The war that Varian declared during Wrath of the Lich King had ended by the time of the novel The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm:

    Garrosh referred to a treaty between the Horde and the Alliance, signed shortly after the fall of the Lich King. Both factions had been sorely damaged by the long battle, and both sides had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, including the struggles at Alterac Valley, Arathi Basin, and Warsong Gulch
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You mean the romanticized blurbs that fail to describe the breath of the entire lore? Yeah. Blurb designed to make sure to present both factions in the best light as possible while ignoring all its major faults? Yeah.

If that did not tell you the Forsaken were gonna end up villainous you were lying to yourself.

https: // wow.gamepedia .com /A_New_Fate#/media/File:Horde-alliance_pandaren.jpg

It literally says the Horde are sometimes monsterous!

This is the same as this.

Without the term romanticized.

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She still has mistrust I’m sure if it. But after what Baine did for her, that mistrust is no longer a blanket for all that is red. She’s learned to evaluate individuals which is the way it should be. Do you really think Mayla Highmountain and Baine Bloodhoof are threats to the Alliance? Meanwhile, how long will Lor’themar be “diplomatic” before the racism takes over again?

Why do you always omit information? It’s annoying

Garrosh referred to a treaty between the Horde and the Alliance, signed shortly after the fall of the Lich King. Both factions had been sorely damaged by the long battle, and both sides had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, including the struggles at Alterac Valley, Arathi Basin, and Warsong Gulch, for a brief time.

Emphasis in “brief time” as that “treaty” is more a cease of fire. Besides you’re taking in account the canon from Chronicles vol 3(which doesn’t mention any treaty) that contradicts the shattering because the later just mention garrosh invading the land while in Shattering this is what happens:

"Two attacks happened here during the time before the Shattering. Firstly, a horrific attack on night elves Sentinels by orcs, though not from the Horde. The elves were skinned and placed by trees. "

Secondly, when the druids of Cenarion Circle set up a meeting led by Hamuul Runetotem and Elerethe Renferal. The orcs attacked again and slaughtered all the tauren and night elves druids. The only survivor of the massacre was Hamuul. As the Cataclysm was about to start, fires began to burn from lightning strikes"

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ashenvale#cite_note-12

Also this other extract that heated things up

*"With both factions recovering from war, the Alliance and Horde attempt to resume their tentative peace declared by their respective faction’s peace treaty. Yet political tensions rose as the night elves of Darnassus have refused trade with the Horde and barred them from Ashenvale

But here is the important thing in-game that outright speaks of the broke of the peace made by part of Jaina even before the assault in Ashenvale which happens roughly around Wolf Heart and not in Shattering.

Try not to let the word out, since I don’t want to cause a panic… but there have been reports of more humans nearby. This is an egregious betrayal of the peace that we negotiated with that miserable Jaina Proudmoore! We can’t allow humans here in Durotar, and especially not here in the Valley.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Invaders_in_Our_Home

I know you’re into the wagon “Alliance=Good and Horde=Bad” but remember that motto only applies to humans. The rest has to eat the same dirt as you saw at the pre patch :wink:

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