I guess you don’t understand the purpose of “Hard” Mode. Maybe get better?
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LOL OMG these retail kids just want epics mailed to them like they get when they do mythic raids. Too bad. No free lunches in Classic. We’re hardcore!
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Get more gear then revisit the subject.
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But why can guilds clear Yogg 0-1 and algalon (final bosses) before we have any change to clear the second HM available. Does not really make any sense.
Because heartbreaker is a huge DPS check more so than mechanics knowledge and you don’t have enough gear for the DPS check. Plain and simple. Yogg and Algalon are going to be easy because its old content thats overanalyzed. Heartbreaker is simply numbers that you don’t have yet. XT isn’t hard either but its a gear check and theres no beating that without the gear.
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Yes. That’s bad. That’s pointless content.
When the rewards are subpar to more easily-obtained alternatives? No.
I see what you’re saying. Maybe it shouldnt be steamrolled first couple weeks. But the content should be doable in the phase it’s released, period.
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I understand the idea behind the fight and have no problem with it in theory. Actually, it’s quite a fun fight because there are no mechanics to worry about, you just blast the boss. Activating the hard mode literally turns off all the mechanics. The problem is that the tuning is simply off; they just messed up the numbers.
To put it into perspective, top guilds are only getting this boss to around 35% before hitting the enrage timer (please link logs if someone has gotten it lower, I’d love to see that), even using super stacked DPS comps with the minimum number of healers. What this means is that your typical guild will never kill the boss – these raids/comps are already doing way more damage than the vast majority of raids will ever do even when decked out with full Ulduar gear.
Says someone who hasn’t killed a single hardmode.
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I see, even I didn’t understand this after looking at logs when I posted earlier. I assumed it was showing HM with “any HM” selected and it wasn’t. It was just showing normal modes.
You’re correct then. It is overtuned I would say.
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I feel like you would also tell Blizz not to nerf release c’thun even though he was literally impossible.
Yeah, I don’t understand the folks that want the game to be nearly unbearable…
I’m a fan of the dark souls series and have beaten all of the soulsbourne games several times. I enjoy a good challenge (although I prefer them in single player where I don’t need 24 other people as skilled at the game to succeed). Even those games aren’t tuned for the best of the best players to fail at them until they have done weeks of grinding. That caliber of player creates fun for themselves by adding extra handicaps like level 1 runs, or speed running.
You actually want the average player to be capable of doing your hard content, which it won’t be if you tune it so that only the best players WITH GEAR can successfully clear it. When you tune the game like that, it isn’t even content for the vast majority of your player base.
In general tuning of hard modes should be…
Top tier players: Doable → easy as gear progresses
Upper mid tier players: hard → Doable as gear progresses
Mid tier players: Very hard → hard/doable as gear progresses
Only lower tier players should have the fights start as impossible without gear, and work their way to something they could maybe to later with gear.
If you use the top players of the game as your measurement tool for “is this hard enough?,” You just end up with a pretty frustrating experience for almost everyone else.
At the moment it is questionable if even the best players with gear can clear it.
The amount of HP left in the best trys of those best players with best dps stacks indicates that it might be outright impossible.
And the claim “Just gear up” is hillarious.
Any top tier raids are already geared up nearly perfectly non hardmode due to splitraiding, and 10man hm gear perfectly relying on drops.
The gearcurce is steep at the start, but it already flattens significantly.
At this point, more than 3% raid dps increase due to gear per week requires a lot of lootluck, and this number declines with each week.
With good optimized classstacks, splitruns and very good players, the current XT Hardmode should fall in around 6-8 weeks.
8-10 weeks till a glorified Pinata boss can be killed seems to be a bad design - its a boring fight with very little mechanics.
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It might be that the fight is being ignored because people hear rumours about it and don’t care to invest a bunch of time into it, if you think about how people construct their raids they are trying to maximize time/loot and splitting too, its unlikely we will run our main roster for some weeks and our splits probably won’t attempt xt-002, we have 1 shot 0 lights two resets in a row but have never pulled xt on hardmode and don’t really have any incentive to do so.
Talking purely about 25 man here, if we thought we could do it, we’d probably require the entire main roster, which we won’t do, that doesn’t mean it should be nerfed less than 2 weeks in imo. Maybe an incentive to make people pull him is a better solution
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That’s opposite of good game design. You want at minimum the above average players beating the hard content, otherwise it’s not hard no matter what you call it.
As with the raids that came before Ulduar, those guilds can kill it after the raid is nerfed.
The dark souls series is known for its difficulty, and none of it requires you to grind gear/levels, or be anywhere top skill to beat it.
Something isn’t only hard if you block off the majority of the player base from doing it.
If you are hyper optimizing your raid, things shouldn’t be hard for you. Pretty much everything should die relatively quickly. There may be a good chunk of wipes, but it should never be impossible.
The gearing process should be used to get the lesser skilled players over the hump, not get the best players over it, because that’s a skill jump that isn’t reasonable to expect out of everyone else.
No
we had a 5% wipe week one on 10 man due to bad play on HM, and moved on but guess what? we killed him the following week. get good or gear up more then kill him.
stop whining.
Bro. Seriously. 10 man XT hm is easy.
The topic is about 25 man XT hm, which is atm impossible.
Get good ? Currently literally nobody is “good enough” to kill him.
And nobody is geared up enough to kill him, and that wont change in the near future.
XT 25 HM will get killed with splitraid geared optimized setups, once they are able to push their chars with enough HM gear to reach the mathematically needed thresshold of raid dps.
With a non XT optimized comp it will most likely be pretty much impossible for months.
XT 25man HM is not hard because of “Bad play”, its not a hard fight. Its just an impossible DPS check.
Its not even a debate about “hard” or “easy” - its a debate about “possible” vs. “impossible”.
XT is mechanically close to a target dummy, that explodes after X seconds.
It doesn’t even need to be impossible for it to be too hard to make sense.
A boss shouldn’t require a perfectly optimized raid group where everyone is able to parse 90+% on other fights, along with full gear to kill.
Strict DPS checks as the way of making a fight “hard” is the worst form of difficulty. It’s worse the higher you push the requirement.
It’s fine to set those as a gateway to keep groups of people doing less than half of the class’ / raid’s potential DPS from killing a boss, but it shouldn’t be set so that only fully optimized groups have a chance.
That just encourages a lot of the worst behaviors possible in a cooperative multiplayer game.
When you have to stack gear and specific specs to have a chance at one boss, that kind of group composition tends to cascade down to the other bosses, and I’d rather not see Ulduar groups being formed with “need 14 affliction locks with max gear score” in mind because of one boss that people want to be “hard.”
It’s basically the same reason hard mode spine of deathwing was one of the worst fights Blizzard ever made in raiding. By design it just made it so there were flatly incorrect spec / class choices.
Hard modes shouldn’t be hard for perfectly stacked groups. They already have a DPS advantage greater than what gear will give to a non-stacked group.
When a fight isn’t possible unless you are a stacked groups with perfect gear, it’s literally impossible for everyone else to beat it, which is just a bad design.
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I agree with your post. 100%.
I just dont like to call dps checks “hard”.
Atleast not ones that are impossible, or require stupid stacks.
I prefer to safe “easy” and “hard” for mechanics, raid coordination etc.
Dps checks are okay, if they are in the realm of needing to safe cds for certain phases or whatever, since this also falls under the realm of coordination.
Thats why i choose the exploding target dummy as an example.
That is by pretty much all definition an easy fight, it would have literally zero mechanics, but if it has too much HP it still is impossible, even tho its easy.