It's the mid maximentality That's burning people out And driving them Away from wrath

Logs, Gear score,Achievements,Parses These are not things to accurately Predict or detect the skill of a player At least seven hundred percent of the time.

Now let me be clear If you want to go into Ulduar 10,25 or Hard modes You do need a certain item level however.

Naxx Heroics ummmm This content doesn’t need a 2k + Gear score to complete The problem is irbasically gained what the top guilds are doing Everybody knows like ok yet are complaining this content fast inefficiently and Optimally.

You don’t need to speed run heroics It’s o k to take your time to clear that content and I don’t know have fun wrath Is very casual friendly but people are Indirectly or directly forcing people to play hardcore.

It’s the same argument that paladen tank is the Only viable tank no that’s not sure at all Technically speaking any Content a palatin tank can do Any of the other tanks can do however It is going in more difficult yes.

But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible And honestly and I’ll say this I don’t Think The majority of the classic community Want superhard content why do I think that well ssc,tk, pray nerf You cannot know is quite a few people quit From burn out in that time frame.

Bt and ssc and tk Nerve A lot of people came back And a lot of people again burnt out on sunwell And I know there is quite a few people that was completely fine just doing hygel and black temple Because they decided son well just wasn’t worth the headache.

An hour seen the same thing with Ulduar and Hard mode And i’m willing to bet when toc comes And Ulduar Gets nerved You’re gonna see a lot of people come back.

My point You can only push people so far where difficulty isn’t fun It just becomes miserable.

There are people that love Parsing but I would make an argument that’s not the majority of the player base And all it does is it pushes all the casual player base out.

When it’s a casual friendly expansion Technically by design wrath Is more casual friendly than dragonflight
You wouldn’t know it though Because a player base Makes it hardcore.

I mean you want to talk about why you see people going to classic I can tell you why Well two reasons at least 1Hardcore 2 Burn out Especially if you’re stuck on algolon progression And then you’ve got everybody else say no. We need to do this faster we need to do this faster.

Now i’m not saying That that’s everybody And yes I am aware It does vary from server to server But it’s the same problem big gear score equals good player I don’t want person With lower gear score.

This type of mentality Along with I need to get this done faster All the time is what’s killing the game People will burn out Again we saw that with ssc and tk pre nerf.

And if you got this far I would say this Don’t just look at someone’s gear score look at what gear they have Don’t just look at their parse why did they parse well And I don’t know maybe talk to the person that holds social interaction. The argument why rfd Wasn’t Put in the game cough cough.


People also arent obligated to carry people. Just because you dont need these things doesnt mean its not a preference for some.


If you’re a fresh level 80 You need to do heroics to gear up so you can get into rage. But if everybody expects you to already be geared up how can you gear up? It’s a self Fulfilling prophecy.

The only way for that to be faced you would have to get Heroic quality gear from quests Which completely destroys a whole point Of 5 Five minutes And really carrying through heroics ?

Oh i’m so sorry if we didn’t pull the whole room in six seconds oh no Speaking as a tank It’s completely fine For you to go into a heroic If and actually need the items I know weird thought.

That’s what gear progression is and naxx All you need is common sense in your good Let’s be really honest here Tear 7 is the easiest tear in the history of the game.

Wrath Heroics are the easiest heroics in the history of the game Doesn’t mean they’re bad difficulty doesn’t mean that the dungeon is bad It just means so easy.

If so really carrying someone through wrath heroics I mean really what are we talking about here killing a boss If in three seconds opposed To a minute Completing the dungeon In five minutes Instead of two.

Those numbers granted might be a little bit over exaggery but still you get the idea My point is all it does is it Burns people out and drives the casual player base Away from the game Which Wasn’t That 1of Is the reasons Why bfa and Shadowlands was bad ? Just saying


Are you talking about heroic dungeons or heroic+?

Either way it doesnt matter, its not my job to worry other people gearing up


The easy solution to this problem is to start your own groups and advertise spots for fresh 80’s. There are a bunch of people looking but no one starting the groups. “You can lead a horse to water” as the man says

And it’s that type of mentality That causes people to leave the game And causes the game to die I? Only care about me I don’t care if the game goes to Downhill or not nope cause i’m happy.


They dont care if i got geared up either. Theres groups out there thatll accept them, they can go to those

Its more entitled to expect others to accept you regardless of your gear or performance.


Is that really depends on your role though If you’re a tinker healer that could be used The problem is if you’re a mass type of dps Like a rat paladin and dk You’re going to be spamming looking for group chat a long time.

Now if you’re a tank or a healer yeah no problem If you’re a dps that’s not as Simple because if you’re A DPS that people go out well. I know that spect doesn’t do very good damage I want to go faster.

So I want to Not go to that group I want to wait for someone For the group I want to Go with or If you’re a plate user oh I don’t want any competition.

So I don’t want to go with the ret paladin or dk I wanna go for a rogue Because there’s a higher chance that he’s not going to want anything I want.

So that’s not so simple.

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But if you make your own group you get to set the rules. It really is that simple. I have done it myself. My alt healer reached 80 so I made all my own groups, including raid groups, until it was geared enough to take my mains spot in our raid group.

Taking this approach can also help you grow as a person and develop leadership skills and reinforce the ability to over come obstacles. Good luck to you, you can do it!

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This is why I focused on PVP in TBC, because no one wanted rogues for anything. My Vanilla guild fell apart after Naxx 40 launch, and I didn’t have luck finding another raiding guild until the end of TBC when I joined my current guild. Now I no trouble raiding with them on my DK and rogue. I do worry I’ll have trouble finding groups on my Horde ret pally though.

Again keyword Healer And again I am a tank I do make my own groups What i’m saying is You have way more bargaining power as a tank or a healer than you do as a dps especially if it’s a popular one.

You know how I know I did it just to see I’ll tell you what It was a million times faster getting ret gear as a tank.

Then when I ever tried to get groups as ret Overall just playing and simple So you have to look at it from someone’s point of view What if they’re not a A class that can tank or heel You have to look at it from those point of views.

Because gin’t yet if you’re a tanker healer yeah that’s not a problem for the most part Especially for Heroic You’ll be fine.

It’s the people that have only deepest options at our own The first step of the gear grind especially When there’s a lot of them dk Is a very specific example That’s what i’m saying.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree friend. I see no reason why a dps can not start their own group and raid. I will concede I have not done it as a dps as I do not enjoy that role. Just remember, whether you think you can or you think you can’t, you are correct. Cheers!

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I tried tanking in Cata, hated it, and swore I’d never do it again. I doubt I’d find healing any more enjoyable. It’s DPS or nothing for me.

DPS always have trouble finding groups. It’s just the nature of the game.

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Please carry me through H+ HoR, Owns.

I’m a Druid, so I’m worth it.


While you have a point, so does Owns. I pay MY sub so I can enjoy the game. I’m not here to babysit and make sure other’s are enjoying themselves. If I only have a limited amount of time to game each day, I’m not interested in spending double the time to clear a raid because I chose to take fresh 80’s to content they’re going to under preform in. Could it be done? Yes, depending on what you want to do. Is it going to take considerably longer, also yes.

I completely agree that it’s the sweaty min-max mentality that drives people away from the game, this game is far less casual than what we experienced on PR’s or in OG, and it’s not enjoyable for the more casual player who is unable to do the content he needs to do in order to catch up, but just the same; it’s not enjoyable for those that are geared up to carry under preforming players through content. It’s not a geared players job to bring non-geared players up to par, it’s not their problem there isn’t enough freshies to easily form groups with, thus these people are often being by-passed and skipped over.

You make your own group, I make mine. We both get to play the game the way we wanna play. You just gotta find like minded people. Join a guild, join some discords, etc etc to find likeminded people. It jut so happens that the sweaty min-maxers have more likeminded people than the more chill casual players do. 2 sides to every coin.

I think typing unsolicited essays to random people on the internet is burning you out.


Got to “700 hundred percent of the time” before realizing this was gonna be a bad post…

2k GS is like sub-level 70 gear. It literally does take over 2k GS to complete. Try again.

Near as I can decipher you’re saying people don’t want hard content? Which is obviously incorrect.

Not gonna comment on the rest as I think it speaks for itself

I only have 3 hours a week to play so i have to speedrun heroics gogogogo faster scrub /kick

Actually, even tho i really dislike the GS/Parsing mentality that is prevalent in wotlk classic, those are legit tools to predict or detect the skill of a player.
If there is Tank with the “He feeds on your Tears” achievement, and his logs show that he actually tanked, then it is absolute proof of:
-understanding how the boss works
-having the gear for the boss
-Playing the boss in a competent way, using their own cooldowns for themselves and for the second tank in a competent way

Theres literally no other way to get this achievement, and you can clearly judge a lot from this alone.

Now, the achievement does not indicate wether or not the player just had one glorious day, and elsewise plays bad, wether not he is a likeable fellow or toxic AF etc.
But the same goes for everyone else, only without proof of competence added on top.

Gearscore is a clear indicator for the potential of dealing DPS, the potential of generating thread and surviving, and the potential of healing.
Wow is a numbers game. Superior Gear is superior potential in output, that will never change.

Parses are the most unrelyable way, and the most reliable way to predict and judge others.
A quick look at the parses like most people do is a horrible way to judge someone.
Going in-depht log analisis style tho, is great for prediction and judging.

In the end its all about how you use the tools.
The tools are not bad, its the players that misuse / abuse them that are bad.