Itemization in WoW Classic

[Pyrofilia-zuljin]

I don’t know how many times it needs to be said though, the majority of those stats from the prenerf stuff is gone, they have the code but not the databases and they don’t want to guess.

[Pyrofilia-zuljin]

You’re talking a week or two quicker clear time, big freaking whoop. Vanilla was never physically hard, we were just bad.

[Tätërs-aggramar]

Thunderfury tanks have to be on their game to hold threat vs a BRE warrior.

in this case, BRE warrior needs to control their threat or end up dead…

[Pyrofilia-zuljin]

Which there’s no excuse for with modern api threat meters, threat will be perfectly monitored.

[Zeelt-ragnaros]

Thanks for the info guys.

Nice work

[Fyedora-proudmoore (Fyedora)]

This sounds awesome.

Thank you for all the recent updates!

[Manhammer-amanthul (Manhammer)]

This means that while content will be unlocked progressively

systems such as class design, battleground mechanics, and stats on existing items will all be set to their final 1.12 conditions.

“Content” and “Systems” can’t be separated without changing the fundamental game experience. You’ve played games before right? Players interact with the game world thru systems. Change the systems, and players will interact differently with the game world.

Classic will not play like Vanilla because of your decisions. Yes the community has changed, gaming has changed, and some changes likely have to be made (certain security issues/bugs/exploits). You don’t have to make that difference any larger. You risk failure as a result of your mockery of what made Blizzard Blizzard: the game.

That should take the pressure off players to be constantly figuring out what we might do next to remain exactly in line with how the game once played out, and we can all focus a little more on community building and enjoying the experience together.

What? The community was the result of the experience. If anything, Classic needs MORE mystery in it going in. After all Vanilla was being patched all along. Don’t underestimate the player base. Wow Vanilla was a juggernaut. What will Classic be due to your changes?

Final Question: How long would it take to review all item changes? How long will it take to create a schedule for changes for fanatic players?

You’re right in assuming non-fanatic players won’t care about items. You could change them all. But why insult fanatic players with changes?

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

Because any attempt to guess at the itemisation internal details would make more significant imbalances, than using the known values from 1.12.

They simply don’t have the complete data for patches pre 1.12.

[Fallanaa-area-52 (Fallanaa)]

Classic will not play like Vanilla because of your decisions.

Good thing Classic isn’t 100% Vanilla then, isn’t it?

[Fateweaver-misha (Fateweaver)]

Good thing Classic isn’t 100% Vanilla then, isn’t it?

How is that a good thing?

[Pyrofilia-zuljin]

Classic was never going to be 100% vanilla. Vanilla is GONE, it’s never coming back. Classic is going to be an interpretation of vanilla just like PS’s are another interpretation, none of them can ever be 100% vanilla (and PS’s still get a lot more wrong).

if you truly want vanilla, better start building a time machine.

[Fallanaa-area-52 (Fallanaa)]

How is that a good thing?

How is that not a good thing?

[Cleavis-magtheridon]

If anything, Classic needs MORE mystery in it going in. After all Vanilla was being patched all along. Don’t underestimate the player base. Wow Vanilla was a juggernaut. What will Classic be due to your changes?

Final Question: How long would it take to review all item changes? How long will it take to create a schedule for changes for fanatic players?

Progressive itemization doesnt create mystery. Quite the opposite- players would be able to farm items in advance of their scheduled changes. That genie is out of the bottle.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

Progressive itemization doesnt create mystery. Quite the opposite- players would be able to farm items in advance of their scheduled changes. That genie is out of the bottle.

Its not really mystery, I agree. However it does create “external load”. Any given item a player loots, needs to be checked against the external sites to see whether it became a better item in a later patch, before it can be discarded.

Yes, Vanilla had changes too, but no-one knew about them so there wasn’t the same sense of “If only I’d stopped playing the game and checked” feeling. Some annoyance that “I could have held on to that” but no-where near the level you’d feel if the “non-playing” effort could have made you save it.

Blizzard doesn’t want people to be distracted from playing Classic.

That should take the pressure off players to be constantly figuring out what we might do next to remain exactly in line with how the game once played out, and we can all focus a little more on community building and enjoying the experience together.

[Pyrofilia-zuljin]

That’s like, the most important point there too, we already get too many distractions from Retail right now, Azerite gear is the worst of it that’s ever been for needing to go out and sim/etc.

We don’t need classic, and any further iterations of it, to be a game where you’re going out constantly to check and see if that item is ever good.

[Cheetaria-kiljaeden]

I want to address,

Everyone please keep in mind relating to pvp gear that the pvp gear will not be widely held until BWL (Phase 3) when bgs are introduced and people can farm WSG and AV. You won’t be face rolling MC in pvp blues in the first month of release. It’s still difficult to pvp rank via world pvp and there is still the time gate of ranking up versus other players in the honor system.

This is an abject falsehood and I’ll explain why having played on many “vanilla realms” since 2012. There will be the dedicated 16hr+ a day playing pvp “rankers” who will be camping every 48+ zone, flight path, and boat/zep in order to get the highest standing and therefore rank they can. Pvp servers will be literal war zones for any zone with level 48+ players in it consistently (Un’Goro, WPL, EPL, WS, BS, ect). It honestly is not that difficult to rank without battlegrounds it just takes those rankers out of instanced battlegrounds and throws them into the world. There WILL NOT be the huge TM/SS zerg as we have learned the honor/hr there is terrible and instead you will see what I mentioned above. Groups of 3-8 players ganking everything 48+ with rogues/druids more than likely doing it solo.

Because of this I actually think the community should be including in the debate, if it is a smart idea for sever health (pvp servers) to introduce the honor system without simultaneously implementing battlegrounds. If BGs are not put in the same time the honor system is any poor people still trying to get 60 will find it incredibly frustrating and difficult to do so. On high pop servers with many people trying to rank it would not be out of the question to die every 5-6 mobs in the above mentioned zones. How many people are willing to suffer through that kind of environment verses re-rolling pve or quitting? Yes I know pvp on a pvp server QQ, TT, ect. But you need to view the servers health in this issue, a server cannot stay healthy if you don’t have new players hitting 60, and if you create a leveling environment that is hostile to the point of severely impacting the flow of new max level players you will end up with servers that experience significant population outflow during the period there is the honor system without BGs. This is why I’m on the side of getting the “rankers” into instanced pvp at the same time the rank/honor system is implemented.

What are others thoughts on this and do they have any other data? I could link to population data and patch release dates (pvp honor rollout) from one of the servers I played on, but don’t think blizzard would allow that. It is out there for people to google and it shows a significant drop in server population during the month(s) after implementing the honor system without battlegrounds.

As with all of you I do look forward to classic greatly and while I understand this current itemization decision it will make the content much easier than it was at those patches prior to 1.12. However having the talents as 1.12 is probably a bigger deal as far as difficulty than the final item stats being 1.12.

[Switzy-stormreaver (Switzy)]

If PvP concerns you, roll on a PvE server. For many, phase 2 will be beneficial to the game, not detrimental. PvP is a good excuse to band together for a common cause, and such social activities are super important in an MMO.

[Pyrofilia-zuljin]

On high pop servers with many people trying to rank it would not be out of the question to die every 5-6 mobs in the above mentioned zones. How many people are willing to suffer through that kind of environment verses re-rolling pve or quitting? Yes I know pvp on a pvp server QQ, TT, ect.

and this is why I never planned to roll on a pvp server when they released classic… i did that crap on vanilla, it was awful.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

Couple of points on this:

• Unlike many Private Servers, the rank access will be percentage limited. Looking at many of the private servers, they change ranks to be based on kill totals only e.g. 60,000 HKs for Rank 1, allowing far more people to reach higher ranks faster. This means that the highest ranks will be limited by the competition, not expanded by it.

• This period of two and a half months where there were no battle grounds, existed in Vanilla and should exist again. World PVP required lots of varied numbers and both STV ganking and TM/SS world battles existed long after BGs occurred.

• Honestly, the desperation to “prove” that people can kill the old content with old gear is a little silly. Yes, the content will be a little easier in the early months, but we’ve had our response from Blizzard.

[Cheetaria-kiljaeden]

If PvP concerns you, roll on a PvE server. For many, phase 2 will be beneficial to the game, not detrimental. PvP is a good excuse to band together for a common cause, and such social activities are super important in an MMO.

I don’t disagree in the pvp sense, however for server health if you don’t want your beloved pvp server to become a wasteland you can’t make the environment as such that less than 10% of the people above level 40 actually make it to 60 without quitting or re-rolling.

Yes it does encourage socializing and banding together, however as you are probably aware the trend for being social is quite the opposite and most players after going /1 LFM group to avoid pvp and getting no response because others don’t want to split xp end up either quitting or re-rolling. Also if you have a group of 3-8 60s who are already in full bis because they have been playing 16 hour days and are on discord together; you are going to need 5-15 levelers to be able to fend them off. Most world quests can’t be completed in groups of 6 so you’d need to co-ordinate those 2-3 5man parties just to fend off the 3-8 “rankers”. While this is not impossible, given the logistics it is an improbability.

How do you suggest server health, number of players hitting 60, be addressed on pvp servers. Do you want the natural course of the pvp sever to be one of decline? If not what should we do? (Yes I am assuming based on prior experience that a pvp server done in this way will experience continual decline for at least the period the ranking system is in without bgs. And once a server is on that downward spiral it is very hard to correct it w/o server mergers ect.)