It is Time to Ban WoW Addons

Lighthööf-hyjal · July 23, 2023, 5:25pm

Most times they are.

Akston-area-52 · July 23, 2023, 5:35pm

We just ignoring the fact that they were management.

Beki-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 5:40pm

Sakimayu:

Beaupeep:

Because the problems you listed are centered around people, not the game itself.

Addons are created to get around problems with the game and the way it is designed. People cause the problems in your original post.

So explain why addons, which are solutions to problems the devs haven’t thought to fix yet (and sometimes later copy because they didn’t think of it first), are the problem and not the people themselves causing the problems you suggest.

Pretty sure the addon arms race is a known real phenomenon at this point, and has been ever since DBM was young.

Because of addons, Blizzard has to take into account the fact that you have addons when designing encounters in order not to have them be trivialized (unless the addon is something out-there OP enough to justify nerfing via the addon system, like old Decursive was).

It’s generally proven it’s basically impossible to achieve this without pretty much designing the encounters around the expectation that people will be using addons to mitigate the difficulty for them.

I’d say except for World Firsters - but it seems that having auxiliary members of the esports club coding addons on-the-fly to assist with the Big New Mechanics is actually part of the race, there.

In fact, this is another point against them: ideally, anyone who feels like they and theirs have the mettle should feel like they can at least take a shot at the world race. They probably won’t win, since most tend to overestimate their prospects, but they should at least feel like they could try. Right now, that’s not the case for WoW: you need so much auxiliary assistance that only the largest E-Sports orgs can even consider trying. Meanwhile, in XIV-land, there’s a healthy - if generally very brief - Savage race, because basically any static that thinks they’re good enough can reasonably throw their hat in the ring. You probably won’t win, but good statics aren’t generally weeks-in-the-dust the way WoW’s also-rans are, either.

Yes, yes, I know people will mention XIV’s ACT tool (which is technically against the TOS but de facto operates on a semi-DADT basis). That’s quite a bit different. Most people only use the DPS meter part, and while much is made of how tight DPS checks can be (especially for the final Savage fight of a tier early on), it doesn’t really have a lot impact on the race - often, the race is even over by the time ACT and FFLogs have even been updated to support the new patch! Its popularity is more to provide logs to aid in serious statics’ recruitment and to provide a competitive PvE mode because there’s not a lot else for skilled raiders to do there due to the fact that unless that particular tier gets an Ultimate - which is not always - you only get 5 Savage boss fights every two major patches (and as noted, high end teams clear them pretty fast too) so competition is one of the few things to keep it interesting.

(And that’s not even counting the fact that due to the way Mythic raids are released, you basically also need to already be famous enough to have a direct ear to the devs because otherwise when you hit the inevitable showstopper bugs, you’ll just be told to take a number - i.e., delete your addons, try the release Mythic raid without them … enough of an ummmmmm as it is … and then probably have to wait till Tuesday maintenance for it to be fixed even if you were right after all. Basically, it’s an invitational match race between Limit and Echo, with no write-in signups allowed, LOL)

Oh and this:

Beki:

raiding is too hard.

Is laughable at best. Mythic raiding is hard. Heroic raiding is hard for some people that try to do it. Normal is almost a joke but still hard for a select few. LFR is raiding with handrails installed and almost unfailable, but there is a small percentage of people that get enough gear but still have a “what does this button do” problem.

But all of this ^ is still a player problem, not an addon problem.

LFR and Normal can almost be dismissed here.

The problem with LFR isn’t usually the difficulty (unless you have a zonker like SOTFO or Nya where the mechanics couldn’t be simplified enough), it’s the queue times. Unless you can bam it out in the first couple of days that LFR is released, next thing you know you’re waiting what can be literally an hour or more to get in (and remember that not every character has a choice about not being DPS, either, it’s not like FFXIV’s effective “everyone’s a Druid” omnileveling system). And then you might not even get to do all of it either, because you might get pulled in as subs for an in-progress raid so you have to do it again! That’s not beginning to count that since the death of Titanforging, the only time LFR has any material usefulness is one time for the final boss quest, or when there’s a gimmick drop like the Nathria memories or SOD shards, or when Blizzard deigns to make the shiny fun thing (like the The Nine mount) drop in LFR too (most of the time, even the “fun thing” requires you to at least do Normal lately, like the Zereth Mortis mount mats).

The trouble with Normal is that the rewards aren’t good enough to really justify the logistic work in having an actual regular group (and it’s systemically difficult for them to be: M+ is always going to be more convenient overall while ilvl is so important these days that you can’t just lock people out of that gear level altogether or the game isn’t fun. It’s not like FF where mechanics are king to the point that even Savage gear’s +20 ilvl only gives a fairly small amount of wiggle, and is mostly used in the PUG finder as a sort of stand-in for “do you have Savage experience?”) while the mechanics are still by and large too spicy for most uncoordinated PUGs.

IOW, there’s little reason to do Normal because if you’re going to put in the necessary coordination effort, you might as well do Heroic. Think the last time I bothered with Normal was to dip a little bit into SOTFO on my mage, and that was only because I wanted the aforementioned ZM mount parts and you can’t get those on LFR.

So we’re already down to Mythic (which actually is too hard for most to enjoy) and Heroic (which still requires quite a bit of organization).

We also have a serious lack of good resources to organize players these days: frankly, most of the Discord servers I’ve seen for MMO raiding in general (XIV is about as guilty as WoW in this regard, actually) have felt more like LinkedIn for raiders than a cozy fun place, so the hardcore raiders have a place but the more casual folks who would be sticking with Heroic or even Normal, instead of just using Heroic as a stepping stone before going all in on Mythic feel too anxious.

There is also the fact that people have developed such a fevered trendiness in recent years that getting a new raid group off the ground is almost impossible: instead, that’s a recipe for bleeding the few really good players out to established raiding guilds and not getting anywhere, because of the heavy perception that if you don’t get on a new season immediately, it’s too late. Gatekept out, try again next season. So people are too afraid to take the chance on waiting for a new group to come together for fear that they’ll be shut out of the opportunity altogether. FWIW, I’ve been in guilds with 300+ active members on multiple occasions where we couldn’t even get 10 to sign up for a raid. It’s a real problem.

There is really no point to reply those who simply said “raid is not hard”, “just get good”, “you hate addons because you are not as good as those pros” etc.

They are meaningless and have nothing to do with why I want addons banned.

WoW is a high entry barrier games for newbies, no matter how elitists claim “it is easy and just L2P”. Yes, it is easy when veteran players already accumulate the knowledge over 15 years.

The classes, specs, talents, abilities can be overwhelming for new players, and already requires reading on 3rd party websites to be played properly.

Addons are just another layer of turn off for new players. It is not good for the games’ future.

Annastasi-proudmoore · July 23, 2023, 5:42pm

can we stop with the “new players are helpless ninnies who can’t figure out how to navigate addons” rhetoric? it is simply not true.

Sakimayu-stormrage · July 23, 2023, 5:46pm

This is actually itself a problem.

When distrustful assumptions like this become the norm, you end up with other issues: such as rampant clout chasing that one sees in gaming culture these days.

Used to be that was just for egotistical social media personalities and wannabes. Now you almost have to do it to not simply be assumed to be a troll.

Which also materially makes many of the underlying situations worse: eventually, only top players get their voices heard at all, as anyone with less experience is assumed to only hold their opinion for want of skill and “if you were actually good you’d think differently” &c. Then we wonder why casual and especially mid tier folks find themselves struggling to stay afloat …

Lemonshark-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 5:49pm

why do we need modern medicine when so many other countries dont need it? how about running water, what so great about that when other people dont need it. your argument sucks

Akston-area-52 · July 23, 2023, 5:50pm

Just because you repeat this statement doesn’t make it true.

“lets make the game exponentially worse for current players for the hypothetical new player in a 20 year old game” is not a good take

Lemonshark-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 5:52pm

this is just a silly asinine argument. why do you assume most new players are so stupid that they cant figure out addons. in an age of apps and technology you are assuming that it isnt trivial for todays players to figure it out.

Beki-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 5:54pm

I totally support anyone’s right to disagree me. Forum is a place for people to express their own opinion, no matter how ridiculous it is.

But I firmly against personal attack or insults. Again, i believe forum is a place to discuss the “issue”, not the “people” who brings up an issue, no matter how much you are against it.

I have no idea why my post is flag and hidden by so many. It is a legit topic about the game without any insulting or improper language.

And people who simply claim I am a troll because of level 10 or very different opinion, well, are just funny

Akston-area-52 · July 23, 2023, 5:58pm

You keep saying factually inaccurate information.

With the cornerstone of your point being “I want to ruin the game for everyone else”

Estalayia-borean-tundra · July 23, 2023, 5:58pm

This.

I forgot to turn on my DBM, in Classic, once, when I went into a ZG.

And, I thought how am I gonna know when Raptor Mount boss is “watching me”?

He literally does a /yell about it. No different than my DBM text telling me about it…

But still, I don’t think ALL addons should be banned.

Beki-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 5:58pm

No problem.

My post is of course “my opinion”. If you think it is not true or disagree with it, it is totally fine.

I see your opinions, and you have valid reasons.

Akston-area-52 · July 23, 2023, 6:00pm

Thats fine. Your opinion has been shown to be factually wrong, multiple times.

And its not my opinion that yours is wrong. Its factual.

That being said. I will always disagree with someone suggesting that the game gets completely ruined for mysterious reasons.

Beki-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 6:02pm

It has nothing to do with “assume most new players are so stupid”.

It is just simple logic:

Improved in-game functions without the need of addons
or
bad default functions with the need of many 3rd party addons

Which is easier and more convenient?

Beki-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 6:17pm

I don’t think addons can be partially banned. They all have access game files.

Even if Blizzard can target ban addons like DBM, it will just be replaced by another combat addons, DBM2, DBM3…

If Blizzard bans all combat addons, addon creators will just add combat functions into other non-combat addons, as long as addons are allowed.

It will not achieve the purpose

Annastasi-proudmoore · July 23, 2023, 6:18pm

I don’t think it could be more obvious that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Blizz can absolutely ban some addons and not others. they have full control over their API.

That said, I vehemently disagree with you. I think addons are one of the great strengths of this game. I also firmly believe they’re not going anywhere, and if you feel so strongly anti-addon, instead of campaigning to destroy a game that has had addons for almost 20 years, perhaps you should go find a game that doesn’t have addon support where you would be happier.

Lemonshark-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 6:21pm

considering the skill of add on developers 100% 3rd party add ons have consistently always been better that is why blizzard doesnt bother. i mean why would you spend resources developing add ons. when your player base will do a better job of it.

Badtothbone-uther · July 23, 2023, 6:27pm

Addons have had a positive effect on the game. I do believe the addons have demonstrated to the game developers just what can be done with the flexible lua based game user interface provided since 2004. And I do believe some of the addon features from addons like Tukui and Elvui have been incorporated into the latest version of the games user interface…such as the GRID edit move pieces of the interface around. And it is pretty cool to be able to write a quick and dirty macro and assign it to a action button. And none of the addons are mandatory. Mostly they are of personal choice to use or not to use…so the best of both worlds

Beki-dalaran · July 23, 2023, 6:30pm

It is sad the social aspect of the game is rapidly fading away.

On high end, it is aiming esport on its core endgame contents M+/MDI, raids/WF, PvP/AWC. On low end, it is pretty much solo gameplay experience for new gamers. There are few social activities in between.

Will I quit WoW because of this? No, not yet, after so many years.

Will I recommend WoW to a new player? No, not fun or worthy for newbies.

Zonanuki-tichondrius · July 23, 2023, 6:34pm

Addons/mods have been banned in FF14 since day 1 and people still use them. The world first team for the newest Ultimate even used a camera zoom hack. Which the devs ended up making fun of in the newest raid tier. (and yes, people use a DBM equivalent in FF14 called Cactbot)

WoW is a game that has existed with addon support since day 1. It’s never going away and even if they did try to go back on it, people would still find ways to use them. People would probably be less dependent on them if certain information was more clearly presented/telegraphed. I mean, I have GTFO installed because Blizzard throws color theory out the window by putting purple AOEs on purple floors. I’d uninstall GTFO immediately if I didn’t have to squint to see certain AOEs.