Except that means you do not understand P2W.
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As i said before in those instances the groups have a vested interest in teaching the player in question what to do. Not the same as paying for a carry and not all players are in guilds / friends with players who go all the way 8/8m cutting edge with enough spare room to carry someone through.
this also makes it pay to win.
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If being able to buy carries to get gear is your measure of P2W, then the game has always been that way. Even in vanilla people were selling raid slots or BoE raid dropped gear.
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I never disagreed there aren’t people buying that many keys. My friend I raided with bought his weekly key every week during Tomb. You know what he didn’t do? PUG keys. He deemed it to be more worthwhile to spend the hundred something thousand gold and sit at a dungeon start and go get something to eat or watch netflix or whatever to be worth it compared to actually put in a small amount and do the 20 minute key.
Like I said before, people that buy like 6 keys or whatever aren’t suddenly going to have a change of mind and actually want to “earn” their gear. They are going to keep buying.
I get carried in mythic plus dungeons for free by my guild because I am such a nice person. There is no teaching going on.
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Do you know what supply and demand are, I’m gonna say no cause of your lack of knowledge on how the token system works.
There’s a reason why WoW tokens go from 171k to 180k to 160k to 190k to 200k, it’s supply and demand. Do you think the first ever WoW token was put up in game gold by Snuggles the pink haired gnome on Doomhammer? no. Then you have the “WoW” token that could be used for other Bnet games (at least for Destiny 2 when it was on the launcher/browser).
Do you know what gold selling is?, again I’m gonna have to assume you don’t cause your lack of understanding on the matter. Wanna know why the Chinese gold selling market in WoW collapsed after the WoW token system was put in?, go on I’ll let you think about that for a few.
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yes, because you have to try to NOT DIE and fight bosses or have someone who DID give you the gear through group trade, all of which involves STAYING ALIVE which involves fighting. someone who survives being AFK thoughout the entire raid/dungeon had better have had fort nox to pay for any number of really good tanks to cover their butts.
You can play semantics with definitions all you want it doesn’t matter if the person selling the run for gold is blizzard or method it puts you at both a time advantage and a gear advantage over players who could not afford the same opportunities with cash.
@Medaax your entire argument for that red flag post was that there aren’t any players buying up enough runs that they don’t set off the red flags. I had to reread but it’s still a stupid argument.
@Galeri and your guild is certainly capable of carrying you through content as difficult as Mythic queen right?
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Many people misinterpret just what it means for a game to be Pay-To-Win. There are many common misconceptions, and even my concept of it could be wrong. To start, I’ll give what I’d define a P2W(Pay-To-Win) game as.
Pay-To-Win: Games in which you can purchase naturally-unattainable items and boosts that give you an unfair advantage against other players.
Now, from a quick glance, someone could semi-easily glean that Level Boosts and the like would fall under the " Boosts " part of that definition. However, level cap is a naturally attainable goal in the game that the player can do relatively easily with some time. Now, I’m gonna follow this up by adressing each of your points.
Buying M+ Boosts/Runs to quickly gear with WoW Tokens: Now, buying WoW Tokens is definitely semi-questionable. However, it’s not exactly P2W. It only allows you to buy things that, again, are naturally attainable in game. And when it comes to M+ runs and such, that is a player run economy at play. Where you get the gold isn’t the part that matters there. You’re still trading a currency for something that, admittedly, you wouldn’t even really need to pay for depending on your guild/friend circle. It is in no way akin to Loot Boxes.
Mounts, Pets, Toys, Cosmetics: These days, Mounts in WoW are much easier to get than ever, even for new players. You can easily obtain the 8 gold you need to buy riding and a mount from your race’s riding trainer. As for pets, toys, and other cosmetics; None of these give you an advantage against other players. The “win” part of “Pay-To-Win” means that you are paying for an advantage. And if you don’t get an advantage from an item you’re purchasing, then it’s not P2W.
Leveling Boost: This is another issue that falls under the “naturally attainable” aspect that I mentioned earlier. You can get to level cap for free(minus the cost of the game, of course). In order for a level boost to be P2W, you would have to be able to pay to reach levels above a free level cap. I.E., level cap being 120 and being able to pay to reach level 130.
Many games are misunderstood as P2W; Warframe is a Prime(haha) example of this. It’s a VERY grindy game, and you’re able to pay to skip things in it. However, the reason it’s not P2W is because everything on their store that would give you an advantage is also attainable without spending a single dollar on it.
Pay your $15/month* and win everything you’re good enough to get.
If you don’t pay you can never win, so technically yes, WoW is pay to win.
* At base rate regardless of method of payment or use of in game currency. This note provided to counter the “I pay with gold” and block sub discounted rates.
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Who told you, that you can’t die to get gear? That’s completely wrong as long as you dealt damage to the boss or the boss dealt damage to you the loot table will open for you when you click on the corpse. The simple act of you sitting at the keyboard and clicking the corpses as they become available is not the same as earning the gear through learning mechanics and executing your role appropriately
No my post was initially in response to your post about how all these “buyers” are scuffing people’s keys because they don’t know how to play.
The likelihood of a competent group leader getting someone in their group that is going to make the key a living hell by doing like 20k dps at 435 IL is near zero assuming you actually know what information raider.io gives you.
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I’m not sure what literally any of that has to do with WoW tokens not creating gold out of thin air.
Yes I know what supply and demand is and why the token price fluctuates. But you know why that’s possible? Because for all the people buying tokens with cash there are people buying tokens with gold on the other end. If it was just a simple transaction of “I pay $20 then Blizzard gives me 200k gold” then supply and demand wouldn’t matter. I’m just creating 200k gold with my $20.
And yes I know about the Chinese gold selling market and how the WoW token demolished it. Again, not sure what that has to do with the point?
Besides if you were trying to have an honest discussion about that it may behoove you to be a little less aggressive about it. Hardly the way to change hearts and minds.
No.
/thread
if they dealt damage to the boss then they contributed minimally at least, if the boss damaged them then they had the SKILL to not die to the many one shots and other near insta-death mechanics a lot of M+ bosses have, thus they have again “earned” their reward not through money but skill/effort. and as mysfyre pointed out the game was always pay to win/play, you CANNOT play later dungeons/raids without paying to get past 20+ lvls, thus even you “pay” to “win” by paying monthly to even access raids/dungeons as does anyone else nearly, your own reasoning turns on you, like the alchemical snake eating it’s own tail.
being able to auto attack the boss once, or take damage from the boss is not the same as contributing your share and if you think otherwise try to join any M EP group and do as you just described you’ll get kicked and for good reason. Also arguing that a monthly subscription is the same thing as paying for carries is disingenuous but what else should i expect from the wow forums. You have either players who express discontent endlessly or players who defend blizzard shamelessly with very room in the middle.
The WoW Token is basically blizzard taking a $5 service fee for hooking two people up to trade.
Blizzard gets someone who wants to spend $ for gold and someone who wants to spend gold on bnet balance, tells them the going rate, and then pockets an extra $5 when the two parties handshake.
It isn’t overly complicated and there is no reason to doubt this is what is actually happening until people can provide verifiable proof.
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All y’all in here talking about the semantics of “win” like a game ain’t pay to win because you can’t buy truly winning in your heart of hearts and junk.
Lmao. If you can throw money at Blizzard to bypass working for it in game, it’s p2w.
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being able to dodge death mechanics and at least somewhat aggro the boss is inf act contributing, no one can just stand still doing nothing in content as high as M+, even if they’re not doing everything (which is the whole point of having a group Mr. god) they are in fact contributing by staying alive and doing damage, because there are A LOT of DPS who can’t even do that with all the “raiding” they’ve done.
Then it’s exactly what I thought it was and I have no idea what the other guy’s point was since he was more concerned with calling me stupid than actually making a point himself.
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