Is there a future for Human nations?

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

And he later joined back up with Genn, thus making his holding, Gilnean holdings. Which includes everything from Pyrewood to Ambermill.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Zerde-sargeras

Or he didn’t have the capacity to deal with issue outside his gates

Greymane’s Wall was a statement made by the King of Gilneas exactly where Gilneas ended. He didn’t police lands foreign to his own until Cataclysm.

Lie less.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

He never made such a statement. He decided this would be the place to make a wall because it was the easiest to defend. He did not go “hey, anyone who want to take this land can have a field day”.

And again, even if he did give it, it would automatically go to Crowley who was the lord of those lands. And now said lord is giving his backing back to Gilneas.

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

Lie less.

Lie less to yourself and understand more.

In any case, tough luck on them because Pyrewood/Shadowfang Keep belongs to the Alliance and I assume Ambermill as well. Both territories were always Alliance aligned(added note, Crowley sent his forces to aid Jaina, thus making his lands Alliance lands as well)

Crowley had not accepted the wall with grace. He had defied Greymane and had even aided the Alliance during what was now known as the Third War by sending the “Gilneas Brigade” to Lady Jaina Proudmoore.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Zerde-sargeras

Crowley had not accepted the wall with grace. He had defied Greymane and had even aided the Alliance during what was now known as the Third War by sending the “Gilneas Brigade” to Lady Jaina Proudmoore.

@Zerde-sargeras

Crowley had not accepted the wall with grace.

@Zerde-sargeras

He had defied Greymane

So you admit that Gilneas ends at the Greymane Wall and that Crowley defied his King and acted from outside of the legal ramifications of Gilnean law when he struck out to attack foreign lands.

You aren’t worth debating with because you lie pathologically.

Thanks, you’re done now.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

So you admit that Gilneas ends at the Greymane Wall and that Crowley defied his King and acted from outside of the legal ramifications of Gilnean law when he struck out to attack foreign lands.

I admit he wanted to only protect his land within the wall. That doesn’t mean he was ok with Lordearon or anyone else taking it. And ultimately, said land would belong to Crowley and he gets to decided what to do with it.

As for Crowley, he defied Greymane’s wish. That does not neccesarily mean it was illegal in the same vein the high elves openly defied their king wish to leave the Alliance.

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

Thanks, you’re done now.

Nah, it is the Forsaken that is done. Pyrewood and Ambermill are controlled by the worgens and the Alliance, the same group they were always associated with.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

@Zerde-sargeras

In any case, tough luck on them because Pyrewood/Shadowfang Keep belongs to the Alliance

It actually belongs to the Bloodfang pack, who are only loosely allied with the alliance. The alliance has no control over the keep or fenris isle

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

It control it in what matters most, the Horde is not there and has place in those area.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

It’s still not alliance territory is all I’m saying, it’s in the hands of the Bloodfang pack

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

It is effectively Alliance territory. Alliance can go there(cautiously of course) and the Horde cant.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

Still not alliance owned territory

[Elathaah-proudmoore]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

@Elathaah-proudmoore

But the morality (or lack thereof) you are exposing is the same as the simplistic, “those people” don’t deserve our respect mentality.

The forsaken are responsible for everything they did up to end BFA. As a nation they are responsible and there is no justification for anyone from the Alliance to treat the forsaken with anything less than abject hostility and hate.

So much for your “complexity”. “Those people” are responsible for what “they” did. This is nothing more than collective punishment hatred of people simply for being who they are.

@Elathaah-proudmoore

And you have an odious habit engaging in ad-hominum insults rather than making real arguments. Maybe you should look up the "ad-hominem attack. It also would help to understand why morality means respecting others.

You are the one making assertions that Alliance races not liking the Forsaken or Orcs or the Horde in general because of WHAT THEY DID as somehow racist by posting nonsense like this:

Assertions that you respond to with a personal attack. You do this a lot. I find it odious.

@Elathaah-proudmoore

This is nothing but hatred. It is one of the major sources of evil in this world. I’ll have nothing to do with it. In fiction or in real life.

How about instead of blaming the victim nation of being unreasonable in their justified mistrust and grievances you point out to the hypocrisy of the Horde, their lack of action, self reflection, failure to make any amends or reparation or avoiding the same mistake for the 4th time in the last 20-30 year timeline.
Saurfang was butchering babies in Outland and he still went through with the War of Thornes invasion as an honorable war. And apparently he is a hero! Like Grom! Or Doomhammer!

Instead of trying to gaslight people into liking the Horde on a narrative level from an Alliance PoV how about you advocate for the Horde to actually do things and make changes that make them more likeable.
[/quote]

You really like the fallacies. This is a straw man pure and simple. And the assertion about my motives is another ad-hominem attack.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Elathaah-proudmoore

So much for your “complexity”. “Those people” are responsible for what “they” did. This is nothing more than collective punishment hatred of people simply for being who they are.

Its not about “who” they are its about what they did.
Or do you disagree?

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

It is as Alliance as the Wildhammer were in Vanilla. Which is effectively Alliance territory in all but name.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

It’s not alliance territory. The Bloodfang pack are not alliance.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

As you said they are Alliance aligned and anti Horde. Again, Alliance territory in all but name.

[Kohnila-bonechewer]

As of Exploring EK, the Bloodfang are considered “allies” by Shaw. They also fought for the Alliance in the Fourth War. Let’s say they’re as close as being members of the Alliance as a group can be without making it official

[Micâh-moon-guard]

They’re allies in the loosest meaning of the term. Which just means the alliance is thankful the bloodfang don’t also consider them enemies too. Shaw also mentions the bloodfang are semi feral and don’t take to outsiders kindly.

Having a common enemy does NOT make them or the terrortories they own alliance ones

[Elathaah-proudmoore]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

@Elathaah-proudmoore

So much for your “complexity”. “Those people” are responsible for what “they” did. This is nothing more than collective punishment hatred of people simply for being who they are.

Its not about “who” they are its about what they did.
Or do you disagree?

What did “they”, every single man and woman do? You are just taking the actions of “some” giving yourself the right to hurt everyone you identify as belonging to a group.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Elathaah-proudmoore

What did “they”, every single man and woman do?

They as in the nation of Forsaken, Orcs and etc etc may not be guilty on an individual level but they are guilty as a nation.
Its just like a country invades another country without any justification and then the international community sanctions them. Ruining their economy. Bar them from sporting events, cut off foreign investment.

In the case of germany, your example, they impose restrictions on their army size, their economy, their system of government and etc etc.

All these measures impact every citizen. Are they all guilty? No. Are they punished collectively? Yes. Absolutely.

There is precedent in Real life and if we want to talk about the fantasy, how many times has the Alliance extended out a hand in friendship before the Horde responded with an open fist? Jaina was basically the character representing that its ok to work with the Horde and she lost absolutely everything. There is no logical reason why the Alliance should ever cooperate or trust the Horde again unless their lives depend on it and even then they have to keep the Horde at the absolute most arms length.
The lore is very clear, the Horde cannot be trusted. Ever, sooner or later they will attack again and will kill a whole lot of people. That seems to be the Horde identity thanks to Blizzard.

I will ask my question again.
Why are you asking for the Worgen to trust or at the bare minimum tolerate the Forsaken in their vicinity when the Forsaken have done literally ZERO action to warrant it?
All the forsaken from the Worgen and Alliance PoV have done despicable things to them. Why in the world should the blue team ever consider these undead maniacs as anything less than a threat?

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Kohnila-bonechewer

As of Exploring EK, the Bloodfang are considered “allies” by Shaw. They also fought for the Alliance in the Fourth War. Let’s say they’re as close as being members of the Alliance as a group can be without making it official

Missing the point.
Zerde is suggesting that Silverpine was always Gilnean land.
That Gilneans are just “Taking back what is theirs.”
But it wasn’t Gilnean land.
King Greymane admitted that it was not Gilnean Land by not including it within the Greymane Wall.
Zerde admitted that he was aware of this when Crowley captured it against his king’s wishes.

Whether or not Gilneas owns it through Might Makes Right, Silverpine can’t be claimed by right of ancestral land ownership.