Its conjecture based on cherry picking Ion’s statements.
Yes, I know.
Ion is taking the “The carrot has been tried, now it’s time for the stick!” philosophy. Positive reinforcement didn’t get you into M+ like they wanted, so now punishment will be used until you comply.
You’ve got it backwards. Delve players want to acquire gear beyond that required to complete delves.
The issue here - if there is any - is that casual players want an increasing larger piece of the endgame pie without the requisite effort.
I think nerfing the rewards is likely happening because they are strong compared to the rewards of comparable content. It’s not just to push more people into m+
Ion said in a recent interview that it’s not getting nerfed. Said it in a few interviews.
I mean i do delves more thab mythics snd even i think delves shouldnt have better gear than mythics or raids
I’m sorry, what? Not a single change to the M+ system benefits those who play it as an esport.
- The key levels esports and top players run were unaffected by the key squish. The players affected by the squish won’t see the +12 affix changes.
- The gear from delves are strictly inferior to the hero gear they get farm from those keys.
- The key squish was always going to reduce participation in M+. That is going to make the top 0.1% population for title smaller. Those players are going to face more competition for the title.
I know it may be hard to believe, but any change you don’t like doesn’t mean it was made for the elitists.
This was an obvious outcome, though. Any player that would find a home in the removed keys won’t be in M+. And those that needed those keys to work to higher keys will take longer to reach M+. This isn’t some unpredictable result.
Also, nowhere is there anything indicating how the system will change. Ion has even said in interviews they aren’t planning to nerf delves. We really just need to wait and see how they plan to change things.
What does this even mean? If you’re kicking it with friends, you can ignore the timer entirely. At that point M+ is just a scaled dungeon with a minimum amount of trash you need to kill.
The players attempting to get into high keys after gearing through delves are a symptom, not the cause. Delves are too rewarding for their difficulty relative to the other PvE modes. That is a situation that, if not addressed, will create various problems.
To be clear, the solution doesn’t have to be nerfing delve loot, nor do I think that should be the solution. But a solution is needed for the long term health of the various PvE pillars.
For starters, raider.io was introduced in Legion. It’s basically always been part of evaluating M+ players.
But even beyond that, before TWW, you could use the presence of item level to get some confidence that a player at least knows their spec to some degree because that gear could only come from raid or likely M+. With delves that players can largely let Brann solo for them, gear is even less of an indication of a player’s ability to succeed in challenging group content
Lastly, throwing around the term toxic without any other clarification is utterly meaningless. It’s an overused buzzword people use to mean whatever is convenient for them. Removing tools that allow like-minded and similarly accomplished players will result in a lot of group conflict. Mismatched expectations is the source of a lot of the actual toxicity that exists, and relying solely on item level for group formation, especially with so many gear sources, will result in far worse situations than exist in PUGs today.
I don’t really think this is the answer. M+ rewards feel pretty fair for the effort required, it’s just there is nothing resembling parity with delves. The gear that comes from delves lower than T7 is pretty awful compared to even a +2, but by the time you’re getting the same quality of gear from M+ as comes from T7 and T8 delves the difficulty is night and day. Not to mention the delves being soloable in half the time while guaranteeing a champion piece of gear.
What I think they should do is add 2 or 3 levels of keys at the low end, then rebalance the gear. This will give them the space to create gear parity with delves at a lower M+ level to give players who just need gear before they can push keys an actual choice to run a low key.
Yea you know cuz m+ players work hard, and other people dont, thats the problem
When delves were announced as a new pillar of progression for solo players, I thought that they would be more challenging, not something can be steamrolled.
They need to buff the difficulty and have all 12 tiers reward gear instead of the first 8.
Did you really believe they’d have actual hard mode content for world quest players? The world questers would have raged and got their content difficulty nerfed to steamroll status after an hour.
Yes. The same ppl that were complaining about delves being overtuned are complaining about these supposed nerfs. So many people think solo content should be easy and give good gear. Instead of getting better and learning to play, they complain until blizzard caves and nerfs the difficulty into the ground.
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While I don’t disagree with this sentiment, practically speaking I don’t know if this is really the right answer, either. There are such vast differences in the solo capabilities of each spec in PvE that I don’t know how you balance this kind of thing. Even with T8, there are some specs that can easily knock them out inside of 10 minutes at item level 570 while other specs need to meticulously pull a T8 delve at 605 spending 25 minutes getting to the end. The only thing that saves the system is that every spec can complete it solo with the gear accessible from delves, it’s just a matter of progressing to that point. There are some specs that I am pretty certain would require more gear than would reasonably be possible to acquire during the course of a season to be able to clear that content on higher levels.
Now to be clear, I am giving Blizzard a bit of pass here for not developing tailored experiences for all specs, or at least categories of specs beyond just scaling some of the mechanics based on tank, healer, or DPS. Perhaps what you’re describing would be possible if Blizzard put more effort into creating an experience that tested what each spec did well without making the things it does not be a dealbreaker. This would likely be a much better experience overall, and perhaps Blizzard will evolve the system to this if it’s popular enough. But as it stands today, I don’t think it would be great to simply ratchet up the scaling difficulty on delves with more rewards for higher levels when there are already plenty of specs with a legitimate gripe that their experience is much more difficult by virtue of their spec’s design rather than any gear or skill issue than others.
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Reading forums will always make the game seem bad, the only people posting are here to share their negative views and opinions.
M+ is a challenge it will never be ‘easy’ but even on my failed keys people have minimal interactions
All games will always have miserable people, and sometimes youll run into someone overreacting because of a video game challenge. But thats why you can /ignore and move on.
But in truth most of the time people are pleasant even on failed keys. When someone leaves they do so quietly so theres no confrontation.
Theres also plenty of ‘completion’ keys that focus on finishing regardless of timer. And theres.discords dedicated to running relaxed keys.
The wow forums is one of the worst places to get a picture of what wow is really like.
The funny thing is that you don’t get “mythic level rewards” from delves. You get at max heroic track loot. Mythic gear is ~13 ilvl higher and substantially better than the best possible loot you can get from delves.
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To be fair, I do think heroic gear was a touch too easy to acquire from delves.
I still think heroic gear should be obtainable from delves but just not as easily as it was. (Were maps necessary?)
M+ season should also start alongside Delve season.
This makes no sense. Most casual players aren’t involved in any of the other pillars of end-game, so their reward desires are mostly irrelevant to the game as a whole. It doesn’t impact game balance, it simply impacts player perception.
The real issue is players in other pillars essentially being jealous that casual players have good gear, not that casual players actually have good gear. If little Timmy has 619 gear while off farming transmogs in the Broken Isles, the only people he’s truly impacting are those that feel it’s unfair. He’s not actually affecting REAL game balance.
This is the entire crux of the issue. Casuals aren’t filling up M+ and Raids with their gear and causing problems due to lack of knowledge and skill, they are simply existing and wearing the gear. M+ and Raid folks don’t like that anyone else has their level of gear, whether they have to interact with them or not.
The constant undercurrent for ALL of this topics, that you will hear, is this: “It’s not fair”.
It’s just jealousy. And elitism.
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While I’m sure there is some truth to this, reducing all complaints about delve gear as it relates to other PvE game modes to jealousy is misguided, to say the least. As a player who will be pushing 10s on multiple characters by the end of the season, I find the gearing phase of low level content on a fresh alt to be mind-numbingly boring. The completely avoidable damage is second nature for me to avoid already, but not having the gear means I won’t have the health or throughput to succeed in the higher levels of content where the mechanics are more interesting to have to solve.
It is not surprising in the least that I would seek to be as efficient with this early gearing phase as possible. And up until the point where I run out of coffer keys, delves are the most efficient path to champion gear (with a hero item in vault) by a country mile. It was taking me less time to solo a T8 bountiful delve on my 570 priest than it would take me to run a single +2, despite the former having less risk, being less constrained to the play time of others, and providing better gear both at the end and in vault.
While I can only truly speak for myself here, I suspect many others feel a similar way. I would much prefer to run keys for that gear, if for no other reason than the variety of the mechanics across an entire dungeon rather than everything feeling like a 1-mechanic damage sponge. But since those levels of keys aren’t going to provide a meaningful amount of engagement for me, being able to save time while getting better gear until I ran out of coffer keys was a no-brainer.
And that’s before we even touch the players who simply think they belong in a higher level of content than they do, and treat delves as a shortcut. It would be ideal for those players to have more self-awareness to recognize that even despite delves being more efficient, they should be running low keys to learn and practice the mechanics. But the fact that many won’t creates a lot of noise when forming groups as these players apply for groups they simply aren’t qualified to succeed within.
So no, I am not jealous of delve players getting loot. I don’t want to see a change made to delve loot at all. But like it or not, delve loot has an impact on other parts of the game. Me calling out a negative part of that impact does not mean I think delve players don’t deserve that gear and I’m jealous they have it. This is just the same flawed argument that pollutes all facets of modern discussion of trying to assign someone’s motivation for their position so you can straw man an argument you have a better chance to defeat rather than coming to terms with the fact that they might actually have a point.
Honestly, all I read from this is “I’m taking advantage of a flawed system, and feel it needs to be changed to prevent me (and others) from abusing this flawed system”.
It’s an imbalance they do need to correct, but I think they’re going about it the wrong way.
They have their weird paradigm going where there’s a ton of ways to get ilvl 619 gear… yet, for some inexplicable reason, there’s still 20 ilvls left to earn this tier… and the only way to earn those is:
A.) Run stupidly overtuned Mythic Raids.
B.) Run stupidly high keys. (In effect: +18 keys from DF to get a handful of crests to go beyond ilvl 619… +20 before you even start getting the highest tier loot).
There is absolutely no drip-feed mechanic to get past the ilvl 619 soft lock… and that’s what they should be aiming to fix. Make Mythic+ awards drop high level crests at lower key values… or better rewards from the Vault.
If fully upgraded Mythic raid gear dropped regularly from pet battles, do you see any problem it could cause to endgame balance? Or would any concern here be simple ‘elitism’ and ‘jealousy’ as you say?
Your response here will determine if you should be taken seriously.