The trailer is like one of the greatest things in WoW ever
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This would be me.
We have been over this Dalaran thing over and over again in this forum. I’m not commenting on this.
Again, blame the writers, not the Horde.
You are…saying that it was racist to make a race with african/jamaican/aztek base to join the Horde? Because if it is my friend you need some help.
THERE WE GO I WAS WAITING FOR IT.
Dude, stop it. Get some help. You said genocide 6 times, you are way to emotional right now. You are playing the Human Paladin™ but being full Emotive Liberal™ at the same time. Calm your butt down man.
Everything you said thus far was “Horde is evil!! Sylvanas genocide!!” which is a meme at this point. Come back when you have any arguments.
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Definitely a well thought out analysis.
If this helps your perspective, even if we pair it down to the most simplistic definition it fits.
From Marriam Webster:
Pretty much checks all the boxes.
I think the flaw is actually not steering into the no choice a bit. I think it needed to be a situation similar to what would make a real person feel like they had no choice but to fight. Something like if UC had been a blood bath to the Horde. The Alliance giving no quarter. Soldiers running and being gunned down. If the it was presented as the Alliance roused to seek ‘righteous vengence’ upon the Horde it would make sense for the Horde characters (and players) to feel like it was fight or die, period. Make it feel like if you throw down your weapons you die anyway. A situation where it doesn’t matter that Sylvanas put you in that situation, you are stuck in it until something can dig you out. That feeling that fight or die are the Horde’s only options makes them continuing to fight this war at least understandable.
Instead they opted for trying to portray the Horde as overly powerful. They seem dead set on every event making sure the Horde get just as much punches in. They even stated that was an intent in the way they did UC. With the Horde pushing into multiple cities on Kul’tiras throughout the expac it makes it still feel like the Alliance is the only group really threatened. Even with SoD, the Alliance doesn’t do that much damage to the city and leaves it. And the Horde strikes hard and gets to have their hits in. And it was costly for the Alliance. This creates as situation where the Horde doesn’t really have a good reason to fight. So, them not throwing down their weapons and leaving feels really evil.
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Not sure how to do multi-quotes like that, but i’ll start with your third point as it encompasses the first and adds a bit more too it, and you yourself have no desire to debate the second.
See, the thing about this blame the writers thing is… EVERYTHING in the game, books, comics, etc. whatever, is always on the writers. Why, why is it that only now, when the subject turns to genocide of all things do people want to all of a sudden blame the writers? Why is it that only now players are choosing to focus their anger at the writers rather than at the very least, condemning the horde in-game and blaming the writers? Instead you have people blaming the writers and then using that as a way to support Sylvanas in spite of what she’s done. Redirecting rather than attempting to defend the indefensible is a pretty common alt-right tactic, I believe its usually referred to as Whataboutism?
As for the 4th point, I’m not saying it was racist to make the trolls join the horde; the troll are what they are at this point, it’s been nearly 15 years if not longer, can’t do much to change them. The problem is first referencing black panther and then having them join the horde. Remove the reference and its not so problematic.
As for your last point. You can’t act like people’s political leanings or personal views don’t affect the fictional works they create. All fantasy is based on human experience after all.
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PC: Hover your mouse over the part you wanna quote with your left button pressed, it will show a box with the word “Quote”. Click on it and it will show up in the writing tab.
Phone: Select the part you wanna quote, the rest is the same.
Because it has been debated many times over and it has become pointless to punch a knife.
Because the writing is downright stupid. Same thing with Garrosh and other characters being throw out of the window. When a character does something that is likely of him to do, players understand and discuss about it. When a character goes from OK to BAT S** CRAZY out of nowhere players will blame the writers because their dumb decision ruined the character and narrative.
I side with her in spite of the writers. They want me to feel bad for doing bad things that I had no option to refuse whatsoever. I ain’t no eating that. They can drown in their own sea of villain bats, I’m not buying it.
This is seen in every political wing party. And you can see some posters in the forum outright defending Sylvanas no matter what. AdVoCaTiNg GeNoCiDe per say.
Dude this doesn’t make sense at all. Zandalar is an amazing place. I’m from latin America and seeing an architecture based on the azteks is awesome. I imagine that players from Colombia must have loved the place with the heavy El Dorado influence.
But ok let us go with your logic. The Zandalari won’t join the Horde because that is socially evil and hate speech. What now? They remain isolated and the Horde gets -1 allied race? All the effort the Horde put to help the Zandalari goes down to the sewer? You are mixing your social justice with lore, don’t do that it will only bring you headaches.
If you are professional and competent enough as a writer, this shouldn’t affect your work at all. You have a contract, an agreement to do something in some specific way. If you want to put an easter egg here and there and pick the right words, that can be done 4sure, but your political view should remain with yourself when you are working with other parties that require impartiality, otherwise you are gonna be the next Golden that writes lore but CLEARLY favours the Alliance and write hordies as warmongering madmen.
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In my opinion, the reason why there’s so much anger directed at the writers is because it feels like the writing’s gotten a lot worse, to the point that it’s shattering people’s suspension of disbelief. It’s no longer a question of “why is the horde doing this”, but “why are the writers making the horde do this” because the Teldrassil genocide was such a frustrating narrative decision that a lot of posters don’t want to look at it from an in-universe point of view anymore.
For most of WoW, neither the alliance or the horde, and their players, were supposed to be “bad guys”. It got pretty hard to rationalize why the horde player would support the horde in MoP but once the expansion was over, there’d be hope that things would improve. Instead, the writers made the horde double back and double down, and there’s no way to opt out of supporting it unless you quit the game altogether. I feel that if the story gets to the point where a player feels that’s their only option, then writing this plot was a big mistake to begin with.
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There we go. Thanks
ty.
This is fair, in the case of Sylvanas this doesn’t apply as she’s been this way since Vanilla. But it in itself is fair.
So you’re blaming the writer’s and then using that as a way of supporting Sylvanas in spite of what she’s done? You can both blame the writer’s and dislike Sylvanas, yet you choose to do only 1.
Not every political party uses it so prominently to deflect from racist policy or action, there’s a reason it became largely associated with them after all.
And yes, those defending sylvanas and thusly advocating genocide are wrong. And are exactly the types i’m worried about.
I’m not saying Zandalar joining the horde is the problem. I’m saying the homage first and then Zandalar joining the horde is messed up. Remove the references and its good. And of course i’m mixing my social justice with lore; so is blizzard. Keep in mind, we live in a world where a woman being a competent leader of any kind is a political statement.
This is literally impossible. Everything is political because everything comes from human experience which politics themselves are based on.
Did the guy get the girl at the end of the movie? That’s a political statement.
Is your main character a woman or non-white? That’s a political statement.
Is your game suggesting that people with guns in their homes are safer or could be safer in a post-apocalyptic enviroment? Political statement.
Does your main character give money to the poor? Political statement.
Is your main character mentally ill in some way and does or doesn’t receive treatment? Political statement.
Is one of your characters gay? are none of them? Political statement.
You cannot divorce politics from fiction of any form because everything itself is political.
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I could see this too actually, very well put.
But even in this case it’d still be nice if it never got to the point of defending or advocating genocide.
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I mean if horde are fascist theyre missing the sleek fashy aesthetic. Get rid of the spikes and give the orcs some suits and armbands.
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It depends on why the person is siding with Sylvanas. I’m sure there are some people who genuinely want to believe in her in-universe, but the people siding with her out of spite aren’t doing it to defend or advocate genocide. It’s just an outlet for frustration for the game trying to make them feel bad for being part of something they never wanted, or expected would happen.
It’s like taking the book and peeing on it. The person knows they’re not really accomplishing anything, but it can be cathartic if they hate it that much. The Sylvanas-spite side are pretty much trying to pee on the plot.
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You’re missing his point. People are angry because Blizz gave horde players two choices within the narrative ; defend heinous acts or be a traitor. That’s why more people are breaking out of the story’s constraints and blaming the writers.
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See here’s the thing. Being a traitor that opposes heinous acts is a good thing. Being a traitor to evil is generally referred to as being good…
For example if someone working in a concentration camp betrayed his side once he realized what was going on and helped a bunch of people escape who in the blue fel would call being a traitor in that scenario a bad thing? Players that are saying being a traitor is as bad as being an accessory to and ardent supporter of genocide are well… i’m not sure how to say this without sounding what i think is condescending so i’ll just say it the best I can: Not very morally upstanding?
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That is purely logical. After all, the Horde is not an independent entity. It does what the writers decide it will do. This issue can be compounded when writers are shuffled in and out.
With real life genocides - those actors are purely independent humans. The enmity deservedly goes to the actors who commit them.
With these fictional genocides - they are purely contrived. They were fictitious events created by individuals, and not real.
I can understand if fans bypass a narrative that is lacking, and pose concerns to the writers themselves.
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Yes, because I like her, and I loathe the villain bat.
Why tho? Horde is the faction that is more open to “outcasts” or people with different cultures and beliefs. Darkspear trolls have heavy influence from Jamaica, black skin country. Taurens have their culture based on North America natives, ‘reddish’ skin. Blood Elfs have been sistematically betrayed. Orcs have a violent past that they tried to make up for it. Forsakens are target of lots of prejudice and hatred.
If this isn’t a faction built with a bunch of underdog races then I don’t know where you want to shove the F****ng Zandalari. Alliance is basically white European human in 4 different sizes.
Dude your logic is a loooong stretch.
That depends on the narrative and if fits the plot well, otherwise is bad writting and therefore political view.
It’s femorc because I wanted the racial damage cooldown without the incurable hunchback orks had back in the day. In a game you can choose what you like. Its like food, just because I like pizza doesn’t mean that I hate hotdog and I want all the hotdogs to explode.
Sexuality from a character isn’t always relevant. Depends heavily on the focus of your narrative, and forcing players to do quests with a lore character and having their sexuality shove in your face is annoying. Val’Shara showed that to us with “malfuriooonnn wwhers much beloved???”
You cannot make writing WITHOUT internal politics of the narrative itself, but you can make things without your view of the world interfering on it. I’m studying and working hard to be good enough to have a complete separation of both things and thus create a rich and diverse lore that is not tainted by my personal beliefs.
Oh lawd
Because horde players dont want to hate, betray and fight each other. What an amazing concept, isn’t it? How would you like to have your own faction torned apart and having the characters and players put against one another? This isn’t cool, this isn’t chest pumping. People despite having to raid and fight our OWN leaders AGAIN. You have a purely emotional view and it clouds your sight of events.
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At least looking at it from an in-universe perspective, I don’t think anyone Horde-side could foresee a future where the Alliance leaves them any amount of independence. People hate the Traitor side because they’re selling out/dooming non-genocide Horde to who-knows-how-long under the boot of the Alliance.
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I know, it seems weird on paper. But this isn’t the first time the horde player had to seemingly learn to do the right thing after supporting a horrible leader, and it wasn’t something a lot of players on this forum wanted to have to be taught through the story in the first place.
It’s really hard to see the horde player as being a good person at this point. These “traitorous” acts come well after assisting in them in the first place, and continuing to follow the warchief’s orders before the game finally decides to give you a small olive branch and say “hey, you can be on the good side”. The way I see it, after BFA, I feel like my character deserves to be swinging from the gallows alongside Saurfang and Sylvanas regardless of which side you pick. That’s a horrible impression to have for an escapist fantasy game.
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That and Sylvanas loyalists tipically dislike the alliance. Having to lick their boots because “we baddies we sorry ![:frowning:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/frowning.png?v=6" ":frowning:")
” isn’t our thing.
Personally I don’t mind tolerating the alliance, but being under their mercy is disgusting
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The people who are blaming the writers aren’t defending genocide, they’re against it. Because ultimately, the ones who committed the genocide of the night elves weren’t the Horde, because the Horde doesn’t exist, they’re a sock puppet for whatever the writers want to happen. The writers did it.
That’s why I’m so anti-blizzard these days; because, at the end of the day, the Burning of Teldrassil was in shockingly, staggeringly poor taste. It completely changed the mood of the entire Warcraft universe and made half the player base complicit in an actual, honest-to-god ethnic cleansing, and made the other half watch as children burned. It made things darker and more bitter than they ever should have been and I really do think that whoever thought it was a good idea should be fired. I normally don’t wish that on people, but there’s a line where, if you’re pushing that much unpleasantness on an audience that doesn’t want it, you deserve actual consequences for being bad at your job. It honestly feels like if Nintendo made the next Legend of Zelda start with the army of Hyrule executing all of Ganondorf’s people by firing squad, children included, onscreen. It was in that bad taste.
The writers are to blame.
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On the other hand, IIRC they made liberal references to Sylvanas’ “evil plans” in some Q&A or other a few months ago.