Posting something that Kyalin wanted in the SF discussion outside of the Discord:
"When you look back at things with Garrosh, the result of that didn’t really… you know, it cleaned up some stuff. But it didn’t really fundamentally made the Horde look at themselves and really question “what do we stand for?” “where are we going?”. And so with Battle for Azeroth, that was an opportunity to say “alright, let’s look at these things”.
- Steve Danuser [1]
This is the second time I’ve quoted Steve Danuser on something that I at least partially agree with him on.
We are aware from the Shattering that Garrosh came into power because the Orcish people wanted such a figure leading them. The Horde, especially as represented by Orcs, is warlike, it values strength, and it certainly had no problem in its attempt to solve its resource issues with war - and it didn’t need demon blood to act in that way. We saw the same thing play out in Warlords of Draenor, and with information coming out of 8.2, we know that Sylvanas has the support of the people within the Horde.[2] Most of the Horde has followed, and continues to follow her orders - so it would not be appropriate (as it was not appropriate with Garrosh) to end the discussion of what’s wrong with the Horde by pointing at the warchief.
So are Orcs evil? I may not say so, but I would ask: Is the Horde fascist?
I appreciate the incendiary nature of the question, but if history is any guide, good and normal people can nevertheless support monstrous ideologies. Hitler was popular, so were the Japanese militarists, so was Mussolini, and some people find Fascist ideals appealing even to this day.
Although, I may be getting ahead of myself - because Fascism is notoriously difficult to define, but thrown around all of the time. As George Orwell observed in 1944:
It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley’s broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. [3]
For that task, I am going to have to thank Lindsay Ellis’s examination of whether the First Order was Fascist [4] for pointing me towards Uberto Eco’s “Ur Fascism” or “Eternal Fascism”. [5]
There are fourteen features of Ur Fascism, although as Eco observes: “these features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.” As I visit these points, I encourage the reader to also consult the original essay’s communication of them - because Eco packs a lot of ideas into each definition.
- Cult of Tradition
- Rejection of Modernism (Irrationalism)
I don’t believe that the Horde has these features based on Eco’s elaboration of what he means by them.
- Action for Action’s sake (Reflection is emasculating/distrust of intellectuals)
The best demonstration of this is probably manifested in Ji Firepaw, the Huojin ideology, and how the Horde was more or less natural for them. [6]
- Disagreement is treason
We see the best examples of this under Garrosh, with explicit reminders that Hellscream is watching over members of the Horde, his assassination attempt on Vol’jin [7], and later, repression of certain races within the Horde. Sylvanas also seems to be sliding into these tendencies, and is becoming increasingly obsessed with “the disloyal” elements of the Horde. [8]
- Fear of difference
The conflict between the Alliance and the Horde has never been political, and Sylvanas makes a point of this in A Good War when she lays out the reasons for why she believes peace is impossible. [9]
- Derives from individual or social frustration
This was Garrosh’s primary cause for war. [10]
- Obsession with a plot against their nation - followers feel besieged
Sylvanas and Saurfang establish this as their cause for war [11], however, Eco also states that the threat must come from within, which makes the establishment of this not so clean-cut (even if we consider rooting out supposed traitors who are traitors in an actual sense). We do see examples of this under Garrosh’s regime, however. I am reminded in particular of the outburst in Dark Heart of Pandaria in continuing to keep this. [12]
- A humiliation at the ostentatious wealth and power of supposed enemies, paired with a belief that they can nevertheless be overwhelmed.
I will once again reference Garrosh’s motivations for war, particularly in regard to the Night Elves.
- Life is permanent warfare
This is so engrained into the identity of the Orcs in particular that I think referencing it is a pointless exercise. Their leader, even in times of peace is referred to as a “Warchief”, for example. Linking it to Eco’s work in particular though, he observes:
“This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.”
For this, I again make reference to reference 11.
- Popular elitism, contempt for the weak (or the weaknesses in “the other”)
I point back to reference 12, however, this sort of attitude is pervasive in the Horde’s attitude towards their enemies.
- A cult of heroism paired with a cult of death. A heroic death is the best reward for a heroic life.
The Horde in general doesn’t seem to exhibit it, but that picture changes when Orcs are considered.
- Disdain for women and condemnation of nonstandard sexual behaviors - from homosexuality to chastity.
I do not believe this applies.
- The People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the common will. The people do not have individual rights, or representative structures - and the leader is seen as “interpreting” their will.
This is more or less true for most playable races, but with the Horde in particular, the power of the Warchief is absolute - dispensing with tolerating disagreement and consensus building with other leaders when such ideas have lost their purpose. Again, I will reference the attempt to assassinate Vol’jin, and we can look to Baine being imprisoned with other leaders concluding that they may have to rebel in an armed fashion to stop the war.
As for the leaders seen as interpreting their will, I haven’t seen explicit declarations of such, but each of the warchiefs does assume an overall responsibility and sense that they are acting in the Horde’s interests. Even Sylvanas assumes such in her conversation with Saurfang that I referenced earlier - the matter in that case is not necessarily that she believes in it, but that she is seen as believing in it.
- Use of “Newspeak”
I do not believe this applies.
My assignment of references is to point out examples, it is not intended to be comprehensive. There are many more cases that come to mind when considering many of these elements, but hunting down and linking all of them would have been too time consuming - especially for an informal thread like this one.
But in summary - the Horde I believe meets ten of the fourteen features. Eco starts to get concerned where even one of them is encountered, which I don’t necessarily agree with, but ten out of fourteen is substantial.
So, am I saying that Horde players ought to feel awful because they’re fascists? Well… not quite.
Eco’s message is that we always have to be on guard for fascism. Given some of the reactions, (defending and/or justifying genocide, for example, regardless of whether or not that includes attempts at reclassification to change the form but not the spirit of the action) I can say that that the story is, in at least some people, bringing out the darker side of humanity.
However, I know that many other Horde players didn’t ask for this, and it’s a pretty crappy thing to tell huge swaths of your playerbase: “you’re fascists and we need to fix you”. I do worry, especially given that we are in an era of populist right-wing movements, that this was exactly the aim. Nevertheless, I think doing this to your video game audience is not just cruel, but it may actually feed into the very concern of radicalization that it is trying to address.
References:
[1] [https://blizzardwatch.com/2019/01/11...initely-thing/](https://blizzardwatch.com/2019/01/11/wow-isnt-going-full-choose-adventure-player-choice-definitely-thing/)
[2] [https://www.wowhead.com/news=291550/...story-spoilers](https://www.wowhead.com/news=291550/rise-of-azshara-8-2-war-campaign-playthrough-story-spoilers)
[3] [http://www.telelib.com/authors/O/Orw...e19440324.html](http://www.telelib.com/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19440324.html)
[4]
[5] https://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/eco_ur-fascism.pdf
[6] https://wow.gamepedia.com/Huojin_Pandaren
[7] https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dagger_in_the_Dark
[8] [https://www.wowhead.com/news=291389/...8-broadcast-te](https://www.wowhead.com/news=291389/sylvanas-campaign-eye-of-the-corruptor-spoilers-8-2-ptr-build-30168-broadcast-te)
[9] A Good War - Page 10
[10] Heart of War (Garrosh Hellscream’s short story)
[11] A Good War - Pages 7 - 14
[12]
![:thinking:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/thinking.png?v=6" ":thinking:")