So, like, what you’re talking about? It isn’t what any of us are talking about. You are discussing things from an objective geopolitical position. They have X number of soldiers, Y resources, Z allies.
We are not discussing that.
We are discussing the fact that the Horde are genocide-committers, who got duped twice in recent years alone to be not the Horde we joined between now and Vanilla but a rehash of Blackhand’s WC I Horde, who keeps picking wars that they cannot win, and who have only had that story since Wrath. We are discussing the story of the Horde, and what it feels like to play as Horde for any meaningful length of time.
Think of it like a car. Someone smashed the windows, ripped off the panels, burned the seas, covered everything in poop, and spray painted derogatory remarks over what’s left. We’re saying the car is an absolute mess and needs to be fixed. You’re saying because the engine, the transmition and brakes and doors and headlights all work, the car is still runs and therefore is fine.
The people responsible for the genocide and war crimes were all routed out and executed by the Horde. Garrosh, Slyvanas, Nathanos, Gul’Dan, Gallywix, all of them were hunted down and slain by Horde leaders and adventurers. The people leading the Horde right now aren’t genociders or tyrants, they’re the kind of people who chase down and slaughter them.
It’s like blaming the Protestant Reformers for Papal indulgences. Or blaming the US’ founding fathers for the imperialism of the British Empire.
Yes. Technically Thrall had already left the Horde at this point, but I shall still count it.
Still very much (un)alive.
Killed by an Alliance leader (unless Tyrande switched sides?).
Not killed by Horde leaders, but by demons (unless you mean AU Gul’dan, who was never part of the Horde and was killed by Illidan, who was also never part of the Horde).
Possibly, but we won’t know until the raid.
So you’re pretty off on this. One for five, maybe two if Gallywix is actually killed.
Regardless, you have still managed to entirely miss the point we’ve all been discussing, so I do not know how else to explain it to you.
What exactly do you think this means in the context of this discussion?
So here’s why the horde can never really ever “dissolve”:
The horde is defined by its ethnic cultures. Who they are as a people is inseparable from the horde. The only exception to this is maybe high elves but that’s a whole other can of worms.
It doesn’t matter whatever dumb thing a warchief did in some unpopular expansions- That’s irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, because it doesn’t represent the entirety of the people of the horde more than the fact that they are a united front against a world that wants to eradicate them.
“The zombies are mean” is irrelevant. “Anduin was nice so forsaken struggles are over” is also irrelevant. Anduin can be replaced at any moment. The moment a scarlet crusader is an alliance leader is when zombies are on the chopping block. Hence the necessity of the horde, for the horde.
The alliance as a whole is far less defined by its cultures.
Wether or not the Horde managed to “kill” them, they were all repudiated by the Horde for what they have done. (Unlike many things with the Alliance.) But that does miss the real points. You both miss it.
Why should a member of the Horde be rspnosible for something they didn’t do in the first place? Saying “the Horde” is responsible is nothing more than racial guilt. Holding people responsible for what other people did just because of the race they were born into?
Now it sounds like you are trying for an idea of racial inferiority. That the Horde races (and even here your lumping in races with guilt by association) don’t deserve to be treated like the other races because of their racial flaws.
Now I think putting that concept into the game would be “bad”. But even then the Alliance doesn’t come out better. Because then you have to look at all the things the Aliance has done, from wiping out the Stonespire Tauren, to Daelin’s attempted genocide, to Jaina’s ethnic cleansing.
So if the Horde didn’t do anything in the first place, let me ask you a serious question.
Back in Cata and MoP, what faction was I playing on when I blew up Theramore?
Back in BfA, what faction was I playing on when I ran roughshod through Ashenvale and Darkshore before Sylvanas burned Teldrassil? Was it the same faction I played on when I just followed orders to gas Alliance and Horde alike at Lordaeron? How about when I was mercing a pandaren healer in Kul Tiras?
I know, I know, I was just following orders.
“The Horde” isn’t a race. It’s a multi-national entity, made up of many races, some (Pandaren, high elf offshoots and night elf offshoots at the time of BfA) shared with the Alliance. Trying to forcefully insert some kind of weird racism angle into this is just… Well, weird.
Nobody’s saying the Steamwheedle Cartels are also guilty even though they, like the Bilgewaters, are goblins. Nobody’s holding the Drakkari responsible either.
Stop trying to force this into an ill-fitting racism angle. It’s gross.
I don’t know what game you are playing, but my character didn’t blow up Theramore, they didn’t even know it was going to happen. My character didn’t burn Teldrasil either.
You are still going with “the Horde” and collective guilt.
And if you are trying to make out the War of Throns, which followed an Allaince attack on the Horde that massacre of Goblin miners as some moral differentiater, I just point to the Alliance running “roughshod” over the barens.
The Horde is a collection of races. If you want to talk about them being fundamentally bad, without saying why, that’s on you. But, in the end, you just end up switching to another form of collective guilt. That is inevitable becasue you are trying to hold individuals responsible for things they didn’t do.
It all part of the same approach. I want to regard that person as “lesser” even though I don’t know anything about them. So I associate them with some group that includes people who have done something bad.
Cool, so years after the Southern Barrens attack, which was the reason for Theramore’s destruction, you justify further bloodshed on Ashenvale and Darkshore?
Weird, but okay.
It’s funny, nobody else is actually calling the individual races bad. We’re all discussing the national entity their soldiers served under.
You are literally the one trying to force a nation-issue into a racial-issue by just… Declaring it must be so.
Not even a little bit. That’s literally you, not me or anyone else. You are the one attributing every action the Horde as an entity took part in and claiming it’s the responsibility of singular entities. Garrosh, Sylvanas, etc all.
I’m talking about how the nation-state that is called “the Horde” has been widely held responsible for actions Horde leaders and Horde soldiers took part in.
Again, stop being gross and trying to turn a non-racial issue into a racial one. It’s kinda offensive to people who’ve actually experienced racism.
The point you were responding to was that “the Horde” didn’t need “fixing” plot-wise. Either you feel the Alliance doesn’t need “fixing” or you are just saying that entire story needs fixing. (“OK, sure”. But that isn’t the point of the thread or even a fair reading of your response.). To to that, by citing the immoral things the Horde has done you have to do two things. Established that the Horde has been more immoral than the Alliance. And that the Horde has collective guilt for those things.
From where I stand, you haven’t done either.
What if funny is that the “national identity” and “I don’t mean every member of the race” is something you haven’t mentioned until the previous post.
But, in the end, collective guilt is collective guilt, no matter what it is based on. It is assigning guilt to individuals for things they didn’t do.
Not even a little bit. That’s literally you, not me or anyone else. You are the one attributing every action the Horde as an entity took part in and claiming it’s the responsibility of singular entities. Garrosh, Sylvanas, etc all.
I’m talking about how the nation-state that is called “the Horde” has been widely held responsible for actions Horde leaders and Horde soldiers took part in.
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It doesn’t matter how you define the group. Whether it racially, ethnically, or politcally, collective guilt is collective guilt. It is an practice designed to diminish an individual because of the group you have associated them with, rather than how they are.
Buy saying that you can’t write stories for the group “the Horde” because of what some of them have done, you are using the concept of racial guilt.
… No. It’s really not. Theramore was a reprisal for the Southern Barrens. Trying to lay Ashenvale and Darkshore as also reprisals many years later is…
What are you even on about??
I have absolutely said the Alliance also needs fixing.
I don’t see where you come up with “the entire story” because most of WoW’s story has nothing to do with either faction.
Because outside of you, the rest of us understood that every goblin isn’t in the Horde, every troll isn’t in the Horde, so on and so forth.
I don’t think any of us expoected your craziness before you unleashed it, so how could we pre-emptively defend ourselves against it?
Naw, you’re just trying to force a racism angle that doesn’t exist. Simple as that. I’m done with this strawman.
If you don’t have a real argument, don’t try and force a racism one. It only looks bad on you, and is insulting to people who have actually experienced collective guilt based on race, such as myself and others who post here.
I will have no further contact with you from here on out. Goodbye, Allawyn.
It is kinda hard to escape culpability when I’m standing vacant and drooling inches away from Sylvanas while she does most of this stuff. I have canonically faced down an actual donkeypuffing Titan, so there is no justification for Sylvanas not being in two pieces at Darkshore.
Same goes for Saurfang and Baine. I’ll give them a pass on Garrosh, but they slinked off like cowards to beg the Alliance to do their job for them. Battle for Lordaeron was actually a lower moment than Teldrassil imho, because Sylvanas was blighting and raising her own soldiers. Nothing. No attempt to offer her up to the invading army, or deal with her then or there, just dog whining noises and slinking off, or Saurfang attempt to die #1,927.
The sad thing is, they try to handwave it after the fact as most of the Horde quietly disagreeing with Garrosh and Sylvanas, presumably “off-screen.”
Except with how the Horde - and especially the orcs - work, if that were really the case then there should have been a line of mak’gora claimants winding throughout Orgrimmar, because that’s how the Horde (and again, especially orcs) is supposed to remove a Warchief (or ostensibly any leader) they strongly disapprove of, whether to the death or just by deposing the beaten loser.
They get a very temporary pass with Garrosh because his early misbehavior saw him still shielded by nobody wanting to doubt Thrall’s faith in his ability to change, and because after Cairne his subordinates always poised themselves to preemptively issue their own personal challenges to anyone who spoke up enough that they might publicly challenge him, but there was no such excuse with Sylvanas.
Them remaining loyal to Sylvanas is made even worse by the fact that the Alliance pursuing her to Lordaeron after the burning of Teldrassil instead of mustering to help take back Darkshore first made it abundantly clear that Anduin and likely even Genn basically quantified neutralizing her specifically as the key to de-escalating the larger conflict. They were essentially telling the Horde that she was the problem.
Yep. I don’t want to get too lost in the weeds in what is ultimately a Blue Poster tangent, but at least Garrosh was a popular figure. Sylvanas was not. She was not liked or trusted. She did nothing during Legion to warrant being liked or trusted. It was just instituted via fiat, because The Horde needed to do an evil and fight for its soul again. Even in the face of their honor culture mysteriously evaporating, all they had to do was not show up at Lordaeron.
I’m on about blaming the Horde as group for things individuals did.
I’ve said the before, but I’m happy to keep repeating that it is nothing more than collective guilt.
So your entire point is that the attrocities on both sides need fixing before faction stories move foward?
OK, I guess. You might want to elaborate since nothing you have said has really addressed that.
Though, to the point of collective guilt. It doesn’t apply to the Alliance either. Other humans are not responsible for the things Jaina has done. The Alliance doesn’t need “fixing” either.
You use a concept, collective guilt, that racial guilt is a subset of. You use to to groups that are defined, in part, racially. That has been used racially with the group in the past. I know that trying to accuse me of “brining race” into it is a usefull distraction, if you don’t want to discuss the use of collective guilt. But, in the end, I’m won’t be distracted.
You can either address the concept of collective guilt applied to either faction, you can hope that people won’t notice that I won’t leave it.
I think Lougo is trying to suggest that since the Horde has had a change of government, it’s now a new entity and is not responsible for the crimes of the older version. This argument can (IMO) be made plausibly about the WC1/WC2 Horde versus Thrall’s Horde, but there was a generation in between those two iterations of the Horde, not to mention a substantial number of new allies. I don’t think it works for the current organization versus how things were under Garrosh/Sylvanas. Too much continuity of personnel, not least of which is the PC.