And it’s a smaller part of that game, not the main content.

Judging by your raid progression, you are definitely not :stuck_out_tongue:
You don’t raid because you don’t want to, not because of the “roster boss”. You want to focus on m+? Totally fine. I only hit 3k for the conduits to min/max for my raid team. But until you actually do mythic raid, I’m head and shoulders far above you in terms of raiding ability :smiley:

As said before, allowing cross-server raids and making the lockouts work like heroic is all they need to do.

My IO puts my skill level in the top 0.3% of players.

Your raid progression puts you in the top… what, 4% of players?

The rift between us is quite vast.

My forums posts counts put me at the top 0.01% I think my skill level is vastly superior.

Between us, I’m the subject matter expert by a long ways. Go back to playing in your dungeons and leave the big boy raids to people who actually do them :slight_smile:

Bremmenn mentions "The very highest level of raiding should require exceptional ability in all three of the main areas of competency: Oganization, Effort and Skill. ", So why design a raid system that start on 10 man as minimum because Normal, Hero requires 10-30 and then change the rules of the game, Mythic should have been designed from the minimunrequired for raiding, now there’s players that like the hard content and must quit his friends guild because most of the mythic guilds required you to be on that guild,server…etc for logistics or guilds with less that 20 players that can’t do mythic all the nights because must pug players…etc or guilds with 20+ players that must bench players.

Sensation mentions something interesting “There needs to be more done in general with helping guilds/communities/raid teams stay afloat, and a big part of that is alleviating the massive amount of hurdles as well as the logistics strain that mythic raiding brings.” even if Blizzard doesn’t change the minimun required which IMO hurst the playerbase since a lot of Heroic Guilds can’t progress mythic, the fact that consumables, amount of bosses, skips, trash…etc takes a lot of time is also impacting the overall raiding scene.

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I mean… by that logic… you can also still prog the boss with 18 people and a fixed 20 man raid size. Either way, you’re not killing it and are practicing mechanics.

Based on my experience with how tough mythic prog is for typical mythic guilds (not HoF or WF guilds…), I’m willing to bet that multiple of the bosses will hit these sorts of break points.

Fights that require soaks will always benefit to have more soakers.
Fights that require more interrupts will always benefit to have more interrupters.
Fights with area denial will always benefit to have less players.

I know that this forum loves to act like anything but mythic WF prog and anything below +30 keys is chump change and stupidly easy (yes being a bit hyperbolic there)… but that’s just flat out not realistic. There’s a reason only 0.01% of the playerbase does that sort of stuff… The truth is that mythic prog (especially early) is extremely tough for even competent players.

Not really. If you wanted to practice Painsmith with 18 people for instance with the scaling set for 20 people you would probably miss the P2 push which means you couldn’t properly practice the fight, or would have to waste time learning different overlaps, plus the timings would be scuffed later.

There’s a big difference between scaling not being perfectly 1:1 with raid size, and completely missing a player.

Typical Mythic guilds will benefit more from dropping players than adding players. Typical Mythical guilds have lopsided DPS performance. Most guilds, especially non-CE guilds do not have 5+ Purple Parsers waiting in the wings.

This is not reality. Most guilds cannot, repeat,


just add any number of players without it substantially bringing down their average DPS. And in most fights, when you’re actually pushing for the kill, the barrier you care about overcoming is the DPS barrier.

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Yea the biggest problem is how time consuming mythic raiding is. You can easily get 40 people for a world boss, recruitment issues is mostly a leadership problem. And the benching issue wouldn’t be solve like people in this thread are trying to ignore. The same issues would happen.

The only other argument is that tuning doesn’t matter since they can’t do one raid tuning right. And then why not just not have an hard mode if they can’t tune it hard would be the more logical answer than try to explain how flex would magicly make it better when it can’t for tuning it can only make it worse.

That’s literally my point though. With how challenging mythic is, you’ll run into the same issue when a boss is just naturally easier with 22 people than with 18. So showing up with 18 people, when you’re already barely making the dps check with the easier raid size is virtually the same thing.

That is entirely dependent upon the mechanics of the fight. Do you think a fight like mythic sludgefist or SLG would benefit from having more or less players? Would you really want less soakers for each? I wouldn’t. How are you going to change the fight to accommodate them? Less soaks? Great you just made the fight categorically easier.

No you won’t.

Have you done heroic flex before? 20 is easier than 19 but you’d rather drop a grey parser. You’re talking theory when we already have a reality to look at and work with.

Also, Mythic Painsmith has a DPS stop for several seconds which is more than enough wiggle room. You’re actually just factually wrong.

If you want to argue for the game feel of 20 man only or how people might feel too much pressure if they could be benched sure, but made up problems we already know are solved based on their implementation in heroic… they ain’t it Chief.

I have had issues with my raid team every tier just because we have a drop of in players around a time when most people are in guilds

Every tier, guilds will lose players and if you are not massively into mythic prog by the time that starts happening. You just don’t raid for the rest of the season, that is a massive slap to guilds

Recruitment is harder for guilds that lower end Mythic raid, but it shouldn’t be after you get AOTC that you just have to stop playing till the next season because you can’t maintain a 20-man team

Flex Mythic Raid and stop thinking that it be impossible to tune, invest the time into class tuning and Raid/M+/PvP tuning the players will love it

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If mythic could flex, mythic guilds would just set their size to whichever size makes that particular boss fight the easiest. Now you still have a set person requirement but now it’s 24 for one fight and 18 for another, which would be objectively worse than just 20 for every fight. Sure, guilds only doing the first boss or two might not do that but by the time you get to the 200 pull bosses, any guild that actually wants to prog will just hard set to the easiest raid size.

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The raid or die crew doesn’t seem to understand that the playerbase is getting old and having to set aside large amounts of static time per week just isn’t as viable anymore as we all have jobs now.

Combine this with M+ being more challenging at the individual level means yes raiding is dying

No, they won’t. Your non-CE guild doesn’t have enough good players to do that. It doesn’t. I can go on Warcraft logs and look at your raids logs and verify. This is the truth for most raid groups. You keep saying something that is a blatant lie.

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Why do people assume nobody had jobs when WoW launched?

Because they personally didn’t?

There’s always this argument without taking on consideration what’s fun for the playerbase, there’s guilds with 10-20 players that can handle heroic really easy and want to progress Mythic but doesn’t reach the 20+bench mark, those guilds not always min/max this kind of strategies, not all the cores should be like that, Blizzard is limiting well coordinate groups to Normal/Hero by doing a flex size and then jump to 20 as requirement.

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Yes, they will. I’ve been mythic raiding for 3 expansions now, I know how the dance goes. Guilds will take the path of least resistance, and if a particular raid size makes the fight a 150 pull boss instead of 200, everyone will do it. I get it, you’ve never mythic raided or been in a mythic raid guild. It’s all about min/maxing and if can make a fight easier by just adding or dropping a person, they will in a heartbeat.

Top level guilds will use the best number of people for break-points. Most mythic guilds will end up benching people who after 50 pulls or whatever their tolerance is who can’t get a mechanic right. I think Val is pretty off base here. If 20 people is slightly better than 16 but you don’t have 20 people who can do this fight you won’t run 20 just because it is mathematically slightly better on this fight.


No, they won’t.