Is Survival gutted as badly on the 11.0.5 ptr as it appears?

[Pandapassion-area-52]

Just do what I did and put his account on ignore. Every post he makes is in complete bad faith and does nothing to push a conversation forward.

[Pandapassion-area-52]

In AOE, your priority is going to be explosive shot, bombs, and butchery.

Flanking strike is a trap and not needed at all for dungeons.

Kill Command in AOE while playing Sentinel is used as a rotation gap filler and to enable and empower the next round of butchery/bomb spam. If bomb or butchery are up, your Kill Command falls below both of those in priority.

This whole idea of taking advantage of Tip of the Spear procs to weave Kill Command in between every major attack to empower it just ends up being impractical and not needed for the most part.

Now if you’re on single target or playing Pack Leader, this all changes drastically.

[Gunrunner-sargeras]

@David-zuljin

I can’t see anyway that the change to Butchery is a positive. We’ve lost our only AoE melee cleave. The increased cooldown makes Frenzy Strikes basically worthless, and the bleed damage doesn’t keep pace with the damage you’re losing from the loss of bombs from the change to FS.

It does though, this is a verifiable, testable, repeatable, fact.

@David-zuljin

Also, to all the guide writers and theory crafters who are going to White Knight the change… it also makes the spec feel less reactive and fun.

This is a personal opinion. I like vanilla ice cream, anyone else who doesn’t is a white knight for chocolate ice cream. Simps.

@David-zuljin

We get it, you write a guide. You know better about why every change Blizz makes is magic and good. It’s all the rest of us, the trolls that simply come on to voice our feelings that are wrong. Goodness man. People can express their feelings about something without you stomping all over them.

You are in your feelings. That is okay. It happens. If you say something that is wrong, which you did about butcheries damage, and someone corrects you they aren’t “stomping on you.” You are just wrong. How you deal with being wrong says a lot about you, not the person who presented facts.

@David-zuljin

The fact is, if you have to explain to everyone why the changes are good. They are not good changes.

He didn’t do that though. He just corrected your incorrect assumption. Since he did that you’ve pulled every strawman you can find out of your closet of hurt feelings.

@David-zuljin

If you’re going to say that you need to time it just right and on … then it would be better as a moderate to major cooldown ability as opposed to a 15 second c/d ability. That’s a relatively low c/d ability which means it’s meant to be used early and often, not planned out like choosing a college major.

This is what we call skill expression. It is sorely missing from our spec at the moment. Again, these are just opinions. For some reason you think your opinion is fact. That is weird. You should stop doing that.

@Pandapassion-area-52

I’ve been using these forums since 2004 and not sure I’ve ever seen someone white knight as hard as you are.

Your issue is you need to be right about everything. When someone disagrees with you you immediately attack them. This is a character flaw. We all have them.

@Pandapassion-area-52

I’m actually tired of wasting an abundance of my time on you.

Trust me when I say, the feeling is mutual. Jesus.

@Pandapassion-area-52

Just do what I did and put his account on ignore. Every post he makes is in complete bad faith and does nothing to push a conversation forward.

Imagine coming into a thread. Spouting misinformation and emotional propaganda, being proven wrong with testing and facts at every turn. Then ignoring the person(s) who did the proving instead of admitting you jumped the gun. Imagine that. It is actually pretty incredible to watch. The only thing I can assume at this point is you are a child. At least that is going to be my built in excuse for your behavior.

@Pandapassion-area-52

Flanking strike is a trap and not needed at all for dungeons.

LOL

@Pandapassion-area-52

This whole idea of taking advantage of Tip of the Spear procs to weave Kill Command in between every major attack to empower it just ends up being impractical and not needed for the most part.

LOL, you are playing the wrong spec. Time to head back to BM or MM. Maybe a DK or something. Anything but SV.

[Ghonhir-living-flame]

@Pandapassion-area-52

Flanking strike is a trap and not needed at all for dungeons.

“This nuclear strike ability that also gives you two stacks of tip is a trap”

Be so fr lol

[Gunrunner-sargeras]

I actually did laugh out loud at this. I scared my cat.

[Maila-dawnbringer]

do you have numbers or logs that show this? assuming i did my math right (and without factoring in any +damage talents bc that would be more math that i don’t feel like doing), a tipped flanking strike appears to do slightly more damage at 3 targets than a tipped butchery does at 5 targets. wildfire bomb does have several +damage talents and can scale higher since its soft cap is 8 targets, but even then, i’m not sure the bomb CDR from butchery would make it better than the tips generated by FS unless we’re dealing with consistently high target counts

plus, if we take relentless primal ferocity, flanking strike’s damage should pull even more ahead of butchery’s during coordinated assault because of its doubled tip bonus

[Boltaction-zuljin (Boltaction)]

Is this ability needed for SV pvp and Pve? I wasnt a fan of it when I played SV a couple of expacs ago so I have been running without it for now. and I am guessing our fist of fury talent (cant remember name) is underperforming as well? I played around with that for a lil bit but it seemed lackluster.

[Kholgrimm-wyrmrest-accord]

b-b-buh what about my heckin feelycraft?!

[Ghonhir-living-flame]

I can’t speak for PvP but flanking strike (the leap with your pet) does a colossal amount of damage in PvE + also gives you two stacks of tip of the spear, which is just free damage you can definitely play without it if you’d like, but it does a TON of damage and sets you up to deal more damage with your next two abilities too

@Boltaction-zuljin

I am guessing our fist of fury talent (cant remember name) is underperforming as well? I played around with that for a lil bit but it seemed lackluster.

as of now it’s not so good, it just takes a long time to fully channel which can conflict with a lot of your immediate priority—it is good to use in pve content if things are dying very fast.

however, in 11.0.5, this could change a lot for a few reasons

1. with the butchery change our aoe gcd is more freed up, letting us use things like this
2. its channel is being cut by an entire second and its damage is being boosted by 25%
3. ruthless marauder is being retooled so it makes fote a mini lust when you use it

[David-zuljin]

@Ghonhir-living-flame

with the butchery change our aoe gcd is more freed up, letting us use things like this

Do things like what?

What do you suggest we do with all this new free gcd aoe downtime that we’re… just now getting? Even using butchery every c/d w improved reduced cd bombs, you currently still have aoe downtime. What are you spamming with all the extra gcd downtime now, ice trap?

[Rakham-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Ghonhir-living-flame

however, in 11.0.5, this could change a lot for a few reasons

I really don’t like Fury. I have been avoiding it since I came back at the end of DF. I just have this deep loathing of most channeling abilities.

[Maila-dawnbringer]

question for clarity: what does your AoE rotation look like? do you prioritize putting tips on things like explosive shot, bomb, and flanking strike or nah? do you run talents like FS and/or merciless blows?

it kinda seems like the disagreements here are stemming from people running two very different AoE rotations–on one side it’s “try to tip your big hitters and run FS at least” (so busy you just don’t have time to press everything), and on the other it’s “mostly bomb & butchery spam” (from the sounds of it, not very busy at all)

[Rakham-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Maila-dawnbringer

other “mostly bomb & butchery spam” (from the sounds of it, not very busy at all)

This is my preference. Definitely a fan of the less is more approach. But that’s just me and I am also very lazy, so…

[Boltaction-zuljin (Boltaction)]

he literally says

@Ghonhir-living-flame

letting us use things like this

in reference to fury of the eagle lol. howd you miss that?

[David-zuljin]

I’ll save the trolls from bothering me… I just play the entire spec/class/game wrong and should find a hobby and leave these forums for them.

I do find it impressive that they take time from patting themselves on the back to stop and talk down to us mere peasants

[Pandapassion-area-52]

Here is the build I use. Feel free to critique it, but it’s what works best for me and I don’t run into the “omg my rotation is too crowded!” problems that some other people are fretting over.

C8PAFBU0uAhOaNI6RqWjIx917NGMzM22mZ0ssMsNamtGsNzYZmHYmZGMmZGjZGjZmZGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAoZYYmZmZYGzwYYmhZZMzYGsB

[Offhuntdead-tichondrius]

@Pandapassion-area-52

Feel free to critique it

Most of your talents are the usual build but maybe as you’re not using Flanking Strike your could move the 1 point from tactical advantage to merciless blows
5% on wfb only should be way lower than the multistrike you gain with each butchery

[Pandapassion-area-52]

Naaa, Merciless Blows just introduces too much clutter. Yes, it is a powerful cleave ability, but it also dominates and changes your priorities to the point of causing conflict, which is what half the people commenting on this thread and others are complaining about. By ignoring the talent, it makes other people’s problems a complete non-issue for me.

If i moved the point from Tactical Advantage, it would be either into Ruthless Marauder or Outland Venom, but Outland Venom would require me to go even harder into crit rating and I want to allocate some of that crit rating into Versatility.

[Maila-dawnbringer]

ah, sorry, wasn’t intending to put you on blast. i guess that is what that kind of question does in a place like the wow forum

i think i understand now though. the upcoming changes are fantastic for the guide-recommended build but are, well, going to gut any bombs+butchery-focused builds. so if you like bombs+butchery then seeing a bunch of people cheer for the changes is frustrating

tbh i felt similarly about dragonflight. i was kind of surprised when expressing frustration with DF survival got me a lot of “huh? none of those things you liked were important” responses. i’m just fortunate that i do like most parts of the current recommended build, and will probably like it even more after the patch

idk where i’m going with this. i suppose all i can say is that maybe, hopefully, you can find another build that works for you post-11.0.5. or maybe another build you like will surface in the future

[David-zuljin]

@Maila-dawnbringer

i think i understand now though. the upcoming changes are fantastic for the guide-recommended build but are, well, going to gut any bombs+butchery-focused builds. so if you like bombs+butchery then seeing a bunch of people cheer for the changes is frustrating

100% you summed it up nicely. It doesn’t help having people in here shoot down those complaints simply because it’s the guide/best playstyle. Having freedom of playstyles within a spec is not a bad thing.