Is Mythic+ Punishment Hurting Player Growth?

[Akston-area-52]

If there is no downgrade, we need to look at other rewards you get for failing.

Something has to happen for failing other than not getting promoted.

[Twleibniz-tichondrius]

@Kiofea-area-52

Secondly, are you saying you shouldn’t have some sort of consequence for failing? If you don’t like the “punishment” or failing then stay in content that doesn’t “punish” you or where you don’t fail. Stay bad or git gud; your choice.

Actually, I’m doing exactly that.
After running a +10 key this week, I didn’t feel like running more.

This season, I’ve been spending more time on PvP than before because even if you lose rating, you can still earn Conquest points.
In fact, even without focusing on rating, you can easily cap your weekly Conquest just by completing the quests.

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

In raids, players can learn from mistakes without penalty, making it a healthier environment for growth.

Once enough people die, you need to go next because the boss is no longer possible.

How is it any different if it happens towards the end of a 10 min boss vs a 30 min key?

I suppose, you can pull again cause they got rid of the limited attempts thing (Tribute to Insanity, Lich King, Algalon.)

[Sinelius-area-52]

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

Overall, removing key downgrades would lower player stress,

And it would also lower key rewards cause you could spam the key non stop for that key’s ilvl loot.

[Marsius-bleeding-hollow]

I can only speak for myself here, but I don’t engage with M+ because I’d have to go through the meat-grinder of lower keys with PuGs, and I don’t know if I’d survive that.

I pretty much only do casual PvP, but I’ve hit 1800 in previous seasons on different classes, in both Shuffle and Rated BGs.

According to this:

The War Within Season 1: Spelunker Supreme

~1600 in PvP is on-par with 2000 score in M+, or Heroic Raid difficulty.

So, I could do it if I really wanted to, but the entry is hell with PuGs, and I don’t have any close-knit friends to play with anymore, so I just won’t bother.

If it was easier for PuGs to achieve, sure I’d be about it.

But, after leveling my tank and seeing how poorly players perform in Heroic dungeons, I kinda changed my mind lol.

WoW players be awful. No interrupts, dispels, and butt-pulls galore. Especially in PuGs, which is where I play all the time.

So, yeah. Basically it’s un-puggable. Or not meant to be.

Apparently, good players don’t PuG. At least not anymore.

[Twleibniz-tichondrius]

@Sinelius-area-52

And it would also lower key rewards cause you could spam the key non stop for that key’s ilvl loot.

If they’re that unscrupulous and want to slow down players’ progress, preventing them from finishing early and moving on to their alts, then yes, they definitely would.

@Fauxstrasza-stormrage

Once enough people die, you need to go next because the boss is no longer possible.

They won’t ask you to start from the previous boss .

[Sinelius-area-52]

Indeed, so we can’t have key downgrade removal. It also tells the players they have to do better, be it gear or rotation, etc. A key downgrading is a positive thing…it gives you things to work on. A key that never downgrades is teaching you nothing but “I’ll get my key to +10 and spam fail it and ill still get loot of the highest tier”.

[Twleibniz-tichondrius]

@Sinelius-area-52

Indeed, so we can’t have key downgrade removal. It also tells the players they have to do better, be it gear or rotation, etc. A key downgrading is a positive thing…it gives you things to work on. A key that never downgrades is teaching you nothing but “I’ll get my key to +10 and spam fail it and ill still get loot of the highest tier”.

Let me ask you in return: If you think this is really good, what would happen if it were added to raids and delves? Would you support it?

[Brewa-hyjal]

Given the constant belly-aching, over the last 8 years, about every single aspect of M+, from the loot, to the timer, to the affixes, to the dungeons, to everything else, I’m pretty confident in stating that the best possible thing Blizzard could ever do, is remove M+ from the game entirely, at this point.

[Twleibniz-tichondrius]

@Brewa-hyjal

Given the constant belly-aching, over the last 8 years, about every single aspect of M+, from the loot, to the timer, to the affixes, to the dungeons, to everything else, I’m pretty confident in stating that the best possible thing Blizzard could ever do, is remove M+ from the game entirely, at this point.

Racing is a good concept, like racing games or speed runs in single-player games.
However, they added too many mechanisms that make players feel disgusted and frustrated.

When players feel happy, comfortable, and having fun, they choose to remove it, such as a portal that allows skipping enemies.

[Sinelius-area-52]

That wouldn’t make sense. The reason keys can downgrade, is because they can be run infinitely non stop for loot all day everyday. Raids have a once per week limit, and delves are limited by key and cap out at 603/610 gear. Also raids are infinitely harder then keys, at least with a group thats prog or a pug in heroic/mythic.

So with key downgrade removal, you have to accept 1 of 2 consequences:

1. Limited loot per week(like delves)
2. Loot ilvl/crests lowered.

[Yeastyholes-moon-guard]

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

If you think this is really good, what would happen if it were added to raids and delves?

This is a pretty bad faith question given raids work different from M+. Especially with pugging. If you join a Mythic pug and fail to kill the 2nd boss after clearing the first, you’re done for the week with no loot off the 2nd boss. You fail to time a 10+ mists and your key depletes, you can still get loot, you still gain crests, and you can just hop into another 5 minutes after hearthing out.

[Twleibniz-tichondrius]

This is a systemic issue.
That’s what I mentioned in another post.
Why not allow people to repeatedly farm Raids?
Players who only do Raid H often fall behind others in terms of emblem count and equipment.

Now, players who only run Mythic+ can only get one piece of Mythic gear per week.
This is already a restriction ,right?
Why can’t M+ and Raid players enjoy the game together?
Why impose so many restrictions that make everyone unhappy?

[Yeastyholes-moon-guard]

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

Why can’t M+ and Raid players enjoy the game together?

There are a portion of M+ players and Raid players that are very much able to enjoy the game together through pugging. Do you think Raiders don’t do M+ or they only do it in coms with guild members and never pug?

[Twíggí-area-52]

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

Overall, removing key downgrades would lower player stress, promote experimentation, and foster a more collaborative community. Without the fear of failure, players could enjoy the game more, focus on long-term growth, and keep progressing without the frustration of constant setbacks. It’s time to consider if the current system is really serving the players, or if it’s creating a cycle of stress that could be avoided.

I agree key downgrades maybe aren’t necessary but this all guess work.

[Twleibniz-tichondrius]

@Yeastyholes-moon-guard

Do you think Raiders don’t do M+ or they only do it in coms with guild members and never pug?

No, I never thought that way.

What I care about is how players can have more fun.
Both Raids and Mythic+ have their frustrating aspects.
Blizzard has imposed a lot of restrictions and penalties, possibly aiming to extend subscription durations.

However, I believe this will only make players want to leave faster.
I would rather spend my time playing more specializations and tackling challenging content than waste it on such meaningless things.

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

What I care about is how players can have more fun.

Adding a timer to delves would make it more fun.

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

I would rather spend my time playing more specializations and tackling challenging content than waste it on such meaningless things.

If you want challenging content, you wouldn’t complain about m+ in this way.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

Overall, removing key downgrades would lower player stress, promote experimentation, and foster a more collaborative community. Without the fear of failure, players could enjoy the game more, focus on long-term growth, and keep progressing without the frustration of constant setbacks. It’s time to consider if the current system is really serving the players, or if it’s creating a cycle of stress that could be avoided.

You are naïve if you think there will only be positives in removing the key downgrade system. I think it’s intellectually dishonest. Even if they remove the downgrade, do you seriously think it will “promote experimentation”? There’s zero shot that this will happen. When playing with strangers, people care about their time and experience. If a 30 minute run turned into an hour run then they are going to be unhappy regardless of it downgrading or not. Wiping multiple times or slogging through is exhausting. Which will happen 100x more when keys don’t downgrade.

Yes, people can choose to down rank a key, but why would anyone do that when they can just keep posting their key until someone can carry them? We see people failing upwards all the time. People in key levels they are entirely not ready for, but have the IO/Score that shows some level of experience. This becomes more and more evident the further you get into a season and is why IO/Score inflation is a thing.

When keys don’t downgrade you also allow for additional exploits that are currently not a thing. Keys not downgrading will enable group leaders to now kick players for any reason mid-run and be able to bring someone else in and start over. In the current M+ system, no one kicks others because that would automatically be a dead key. If this change happened people will be kicked and people will still continue to leave keys that are not going well.

Yes, downgraded keys suck, but it’s there for a specific reason whether you personally like it or not. There’s a good reason for it to be in the game. We already have enough players in key levels where they shouldn’t be where their DPS is half of what it should be, ignoring mechs, not knowing mechs, not interrupting, ect. Removing downgrades will make it exponentially worse.

Removing downgrades also make it so anyone can get carried or buy a boost in a +10 key and now they have it for the rest of the season. They can keep posting their key forever, constantly dragging unknowing groups down, and failing upwards with Myth track vault.

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Counter Proposal

• Give Keystones 2-3 charges so key holders get a limited amount of retries. I have been saying this for years. Unlimited attempts is bad and the argument is too all-or-nothing.
• Give Keystones 2-3 random dungeons it will work for. This way there is still randomness and chance that Blizzard wants to maintain, but allows players who post their own key because pugging into groups can be difficult especially for DPS.

[Tuwen-moon-guard]

@Twleibniz-tichondrius

Overall, removing key downgrades would lower player stress, promote experimentation, and foster a more collaborative community. Without the fear of failure, players could enjoy the game more, focus on long-term growth, and keep progressing without the frustration of constant setbacks. It’s time to consider if the current system is really serving the players, or if it’s creating a cycle of stress that could be avoided.

I think most M+ players just want easy loot. This season has proven that challenging content is not what most M+ players are seeking out.

[Bonesauce-bloodhoof]

no key depletes would make pugging M+ impossible. There’s already tons of posts on people complaining about leavers in M+ and this would make it infinitely worse. Without downgrading the bad players would just be failing up by smashing their face into a key level until they manage to get a carry to the next one. Then they could keep running a key level they are not qualified for because their key never goes down.