Play what you want. Screw the meta. Guilds that aren’t tryhards will be more accepting of “non meta” specs within.reason. The tryhards will just parrot the same old crap.
truer words have never been spoken my friend - especially to that guy in particular…
you sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!
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cough so were Warriors cough
Dual Wield Fury tanks were BiS in DPS AND Tanking/Threat with the exact same spec…
so much for the Hybrid tax against them in Vanilla eh?
You overestimate the patience of a 40 man raid when they’re losing hundreds of gold to consumes due to wiping. After 3 weeks of wiping to Ragnaros, any guild, no matter how casual, is going to wonder what they can do to prevent more wipes. Raid comp is one of the easiest things to min/max. Any guild leader that wants to keep their guild alive would bench a low damage hybrid to prevent the other 39 people from gquitting. Being stuck on a boss for multiple weeks very quickly turns from a fun challenge to a frustrating waste of time/resources spent in preparation.
This problem gets worse throughout the timeline too, as more consumables are required and the difficulty ramps up. AQ40 will kill a lot of guilds due to this.
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Right warriors the hybrid that didn’t have to pay the hybrid tax for no reason.
question for people who are pro-hybrids in raids -
How much extra farming time does it take? Like how many gnomer runs for a MCP?
question for people who are anti-hybrids in raids -
It seems like there’s some overlap with the Classic raids are easy group, but even if not, most people don’t believe its going to take long to down these. If its less challenging then why worry about raid comp as much this time around?
I just feel people look too much into optimization and instead should treat the meta as guildlines instead of actual rules in order to raid, if the majority of your dps are higher in the meta you should assume that it will be easier however you are still not immune to wiping.
Just like on the flip side if you raid with a bunch of non-meta picks you should understand it will be harder but certainly not impossible with downing bosses.
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The respec cost is really going to bring this to an issue this time around. It’s almost hard to remember a time when we couldn’t swap specs, and for some, they don’t even know what it is like. Now it costs gold and it scales to the point where people cannot afford it.
“Hey, I can heal and then XX in pvp!” Sure, you can manage that for a bit, but then it will cost you too much money to switch. I do not remember the actual ramp up scale but it did get expensive in a hurry. You literally will not be able to afford to change specs. To put some perspective on it, it would be like coughing up a token every time you want to change specs. Every. Single. Time.
This.
- "Bring the player not the spec" is Retail WoW thinking. Back in Vanilla the classes and specs weren’t well balanced.
- "Bring the spec, not the player" This is the attitude you should have for Classic if you want to help your raid progress in a timely manner and pull your weight. This is also the attitude raid groups had in Vanilla when recruiting. First they looked for the spec they wanted, then they did a trial run with you to see if you were any good. If you insisted on going as the wrong spec, they wouldn’t even bother taking you on a trial run. They’d pass on you immediately.
If im a raid leader i wont deny a hybrid dps if they are active members of the guild, are properly prepare (flasks ect) and actually show up. Filling a 40 man raid is sometimes a pain in more casual guilds.
BUT
They will have to realize that they are being carried and everyone would be much happier if they were something else. They will have to realize that warriors, rogues, mages and hunters are the most popular classes so guilds will not be struggling to find proper dps so you will have to work twice as hard as everyone else to stand out. And even then no one will appreciate you and are just going to bug you to spec something else. People will silently (and sometimes not so silently) resent you if you get loot over say a rogue or warrior.
TLDR If you want to dps in classic dont make it harder for yourself or others and just roll a dps class. It sucks, i know. Vanilla hybrid class design was terrible but its not going to change and you are not going to be the special snowflake that changes everyone’s mind
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It’s a 40% drop rate, so you would need to run in 25 times to get one for each boss in MC. Boss fights will likely last longer in Classic than they do on pservers, so you might need more than one per boss. And then you have to decide if you are going to use them on trash or just get carried to each boss.
This didn’t create any balance issue though. Yes, a warrior could dps or tank in a raid, but it’s not like they could dps and be tanky at the same time. The other hybrids were taxed because of balance issues. Ret, feral and SP were very survivable while they were dealing damage. In raids this didn’t matter because they had dedicated healers. Had they not taxed them and allowed them to deal dps on par with a warrior/rogue/mage…while retaining their healing abilities, it would have made them brokenly OP in pvp.
if someone says you can’t do something they are a gatekeeping a**hole.
I wont be an idiot and argue that there are no tier lists or that all guilds will take any spec, but ANYONE that wants to raid will be able to on ANY class. period.
Think of it like looking for a group. If you are a DPS trying to form a group then it might take a while to find a tank and a healer, especially if you cant find them in your guild or on your friends list. But a tank putting together a group will do so faster. IN EITHER CASE YOU WILL EVENTUALLY GET A GROUP. just think of the hybrid classes as the dps and the “top” classes as the healer/tank.
You will see boomkins playing at level 60. you will see shadow priests, elemental/enhancement shamans, prot paladins, beast master hunters, ALL of it. Hell, i wouldnt be surprised if someone who ignores all the idiots actually finds unique ways to gear and build some of the hybrid specs to make them more viable than we ever imagined.
Listen to the gatekeepers if you want, or find a class that speaks to you and do your very best to max out its potential. you will see that takes you everywhere you want to go in classic wow.
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No one has ever said not to play whatever you want. The meta doesn’t say “don’t play Ret,” it says “Ret does bad DPS and there’s no reason to invite them over a better DPS spec.”
Everyone warning people that hybrids underperform and will have trouble getting into a group is being realistic. It doesn’t matter if it’s possible to raid successfully as Ret. People will see a Ret and refuse to invite them because they’re Ret.
Telling people they can play whatever they want is perfectly reasonable, but they should also be prepared for reality.
It’s not “the same old crap”, it’s the same old formula for success. That’s why it’s the meta.’
You’re right that more casual guilds will be more accepting of it, though, which is why they usually clear less content.
Why drive your car when you could walk?
Why buy groceries when you could grow your own crops?
Because most people don’t want to make things harder for themselves without good reason. Because there’s no good reason to invite a bunch of hybrid DPS when you could invite more pure DPS classes that will do much more DPS and have an easier time in the raid.
Clear the content faster and go back to doing whatever it is you do outside of raids sooner. Would you rather take 3 hours to clear MC or 1 hour?
Indeed. Everyone saying otherwise seems to be hopeful retail players thinking they’ll be the ones to break the meta. “Feral was bad, but I’ll be the best player in the world and out perform even the Warriors and Rogues!” No, you won’t. You’re feral. The are limits to what your spec is capable of, and player effort only takes you so far.
If you have to work 50x as hard for 80% of the DPS of someone who barely tries, you know your spec is bad. Just accept it.
I think it’s “Bring the spec and the player.”
I’d rather have good players, but I’d rather have good players who play the right spec.
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starts at 1g, goes up by 5g every time to a max of 50g
decays by 5g each month with no respeccing to a min of 15g
People really need to understand the Hybrid tax existed, so Paladin & Druid were not overpowered, Ret Pally & Druid DPS do well in PVP/Dungeons & early raids, but AQ/Naxx, Guilds will prefer them for heals.
This is honestly better than BFA, Classic Raids will always find a use for all the Classes due to Classes having unique utility, that even includes Hunter. While in BFA Mythic, you tend to stack 10 of the best DPS that patch & a few classes will probably get kicked, Uldir you stacked rogues & you stack Warlocks right now, Classic is a tad more balanced objectively.
That’s highly debatable but if so did they succeed? No! So this whole line of discussion from you is moot.
It’s not like Blizz is going to learn from their past mistakes and make changes in Classic. Classic is a locked time capsule. That’s the whole point. All the balance issues and weak specs will still exist.
Hybrids will be forced to Off Heal and be Buff Bots in Raids. Warriors will be the Main Tanks. Priests will be the Main Healers and Mages/Rogues will be the primary DPS specs.
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By 1.12 hybrid balance was much better than at launch, it wasn’t as good as BC nor was itemization. But the changes most certainly helped non healing hybrid specs.
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The main issues were all still there though. Gearing being the biggest problem so hybrid specs were still lagging behind.
Prot Pallies got a nice talent rework (I played one during that patch) but they still didn’t have a Taunt and still had issues finding suitable gear. In particular in getting Defense capped.
Shadow Priests, Ele Shaman and Moonkins still had mana issues on long fights. Ret Pallies would stay a joke all through TBC.
When you start from zero any improvement can be called better but in the end it wasn’t enough. Things started to get better in TBC because of gear but the hybrid Tax didn’t start to go away until Wrath.
I laughed when he said Hunter. No, it’s Warrior, Warlock, Rogue, and Mage. If you see more than 3 Hunters in any raid in Classic… that is rare…
Ill have some free time for that on tomorrow (Thursday), unfortunately I am stuck right now with very limited resources and time.