Yeah so she’s still the same person why you stop liking her
Because I am bias towards night elves. Lol.
I also just don’t like the general direction of the BfA storyline, which does little favors for Sylvanas.
You can definitely throw that passage under the retcon bus. It must have been made for Warcraft 3.
It’s not, but whatever justifies your own headcanon.
Game’s headcannon too. You may not have noticed but we DO have male Elunite priests, both as PC’s and NPCs.
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Novices most likely, or once again Blizzard ignoring their own lore. The Encyclopedia notes that the exclusivity of gender in the Sisterhood is discarded, but persists as a social and cultural consequence of their beliefs.
Considering how rare it is to see male Priests, this makes sense to me. Furthermore, just because men exist doesn’t change the fact that the head of state is Tyrande, and the Sisterhood is the governing branch of civilian and military life, and they hold matriarchal views both in a cultural and familial sense.
If you believe western society irl is patriarchal, then it’s downright silly not to believe in Nelf Matriarchy.
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She’s not. She’s the director of activities in which the Church of Elune participates in. That does not even include all military ones as it was Fandral and the then Night Elven Cenarian Circle that fought the War of the Burning Sands. And it was Malfurion who was the lead figure in the War of Thorns, with Daeleryn taking her orders from HIM.
Her authority over Maiev’s Wardens is tenuous at best. It was non-existent during Reign of Chaos as she had to KILL them in order to free Illidan.
During Malfurion’s recent slumber it’s arguable that Fandral Stormrage actually wielded more direct authority than Tyrande. Teldrassil was raised at HIS direction and he pretty much commanded the vast majority of Druids.
(And the major reason you see mostly female Elunite Priests is pretty much the same way the Night Elf Druid in the original WOW cinematic was dressed the way she was.)
The only real argument for Tyrande as head of state is her status as the PVP target for the Night Elf part of the Alliance Bosses acheivement.
What? Yes she is lol. The Sisterhood lead and organize the Sentinels lol
War of the Shifting Sands.
Because it was a Cenarian Circle expedition, which the Sentinels supported once they learned what was happening.
Because Tyrande was off being the representative of the Kaldorei people.
Because he is an extension of Tyrande’s authority.
Probably because the authority keeping him locked away was a literal demigod. I would think Keepers of the Grove are outside the jurisdiction of the Kaldorei Government.
No its not lol
The Druids grew it themselves… No one else had a say in it because… Well, because they cant grow giant trees.
And she literally has been for thousands of years.
Are you really making this argument?
Chroncile, the Ultimate Visual Guide, and the Encyclopedia all put Tyrande as the Leader of the Kaldorei, head of the Sisterhood, and Head of the Sentinels. Hell, the Sisterhood is the leading branch of the Sentinels…
And just because Malfurion and Fandral exist doesn’t change the fact that Kaldorei have a matriarchal system of governing, societal customs, cultural beliefs and familial structures…
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The Encyclopedia has all but been totally overwritten by the changes Blizzard has made to Warcraft history, and Chronicle … has issues.
All the lore has issues… But I think above I made a very strong case of Nelf matriarchy. A sentiment it appears to have quite great deal of support from the people here.
You arguments boil down to the willful misunderstanding of the lore, willful ignoring of lore. The sexist idea that men cannot be successful in a matriarchal system, or a matriarchal system can’t exist in the same space where there are successful men. Or transplanting your own, personal, irl worldview into the race you play, and manipulating the lore to fit that worldview.
I for one really enjoy the idea of a matriarchal race that isn’t satire, or isn’t an inherently evil institution to ultimately be bested by male protagonists, such as the case with the Drow and Drizzit. I think Nelf matriarchay adds to the richness of the world, I think it makes the Kaldorei more fun and interesting, and I think its good world building, and I think it is supported strongly in the lore.
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Elerethe Renferal, the archdruid seen in Alterac Valley (who summons Ivus) died in the Shattering Novel by Twilight Cultists. Although she believed she was killed on the orders of Hamuul Runetotem. We later kill her corrupted spirit in the Emerald Nightmare raid back in Legion. Hence why her encounter area takes place in a distorted Thunder Bluff.
Who were you thinking of that died in the War of Thorns?
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The more Akiyass states how cool and interesting Sylvanas was as a villain, the more I realize I never liked Sylvanas as much as I thought I did, and my speculations on who would kill and replace her during the war were in fact a subtle undercurrent of dislike for how Elves had overtaken the Forsaken storyline and that Lordaeron had always been what I cared about. I mean I knew I had feelings like that in Cata, but it really crystallized in BfA.
It’s fascinating to think about how the mind works.
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Her speech in Cataclysm was really cool though.
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I have that effect on people.
Yeah, but her speech in Cata was cool because it was talking about Lordaeron, the Forsaken and their peoples struggle to survive in the world. Not about Sylvanas herself, and if anyone else gave that speech, would I think it less cool? if Farnell said the same thing, i’d probably say it’s more so.
And it sort of congeals into this thought process of, was Sylvanas ever cool or interesting? i’v argued with people up and down about her worth to the narrative, but are people like Katiera wrong, rather then just not making compelling arguments? You can’t account for that, because someone presents you with something illogical doesn’t mean they are incorrect in all aspects.
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I thought it was a fun inversion of typical fantasy tropes. The men we’re the ones in touch with the equal parts nurturing and wrathful aspects of Mother Nature and the women we’re riding giant sabre tooth tigers and throwing impractical fantasy bladed weapons around. That’s kinda got lost as WoW progressed and it’s a bit of a shame.
Orcs always struck me as the true egalitarian race which I thought was again a fun little twist on tropes. The race that’s traditionally dressed with masculine honor culture brought to comedic extremes can actually be easily commanded by an Orcess - as despite physical differences there’s nothing to suggest there’s a real difference in their very innate combat ability.
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That’s interesting that you have had such a change of heart. Feel like that’s what all the haters have argued? That Sylvanas was actually a hindrance to Forsaken development because Sylvanas story was always about Sylvanas, and she didn’t have much of a connection to Lordaeron before claiming it as her own.
Personally I was always neutral on her and didn’t really like or dislike the character until BfA when they made her this annoying inconsistent incoherent plot device to take us into the Shadowlands, which is a bunch of new school Lore I have 0 interest in (but that’s another issue.). Sylvanas best moments do come when she is a national leader of the Forsaken, though; which is interesting- was it Sylvanas people liked, or was it what she represented as the Forsakens leader?
BUT TROLLS THOUGH!!!
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Sometimes what it takes to have an epiphany is not someone you disagree with posing a bad argument, but someone you tend to disagree with vocalizing something you’d taken as correct.
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https://i.imgur.com/8g5Oipf.png
I think Sylvanas was a pretty good leader of the Forsaken and represented them well. Lordaeronian humans had a kinship with the elves of Quel’thalas back in the 2nd War, and both suffering the Scourge just continues that Kinship. Add it with those who now both suffer undeath, I can’t see any human or elf Forsaken really caring about it, nor having any lingering care for Lordaeronian nationalism aside from the Symbolism of their banner hanging over what was once the seat of power of House Menethil. Which is responsible for the curse they now bare.
I have always seen the Forsaken harboring a kind-of Selfish comradery for each other. Understanding how undeath twists one’s sense of morality, it would be a comradery developed solely by the virtue of their shared plight, and an alignment of their goals, as opposed to anything that could be seen as the emotional sense of fellowship that we, as living humans, are familiar with.
I think Forsaken are difficult to pin down. As the effect death has on the mind is ambiguous and difficult to understand. I almost think of it like Lizardfolk in D&D.
Except, they are not reptilians… So that’s not totally accurate. I am just trying to get the point across that undead think and reason differently than living humans or elves. And Sylvanas’ pragmatic “love” for her people, and as tools to achieve an end that is both in Her and Their benefit… I think that makes sense. I think that’s consistent. But maybe I am the only one who really sees it that way.
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