“malfurion is indeed the first druid. this was poor wording on my part. the “keepers” of farodin’s order were not full druids.” - Don Adam on twitter.
Proto - Original or Privative. Relating to a precursor.
That is what I mean. There were early version of druids before Malfurion.
Siiiigh, yes I have proven this…
Many… many times…
Mhm, because many of the druids Malfurion trained were former mages or Moon Guard. So they were the target of Dath’Remar’s ire… You still have not proven that Malfurion was specifically the one to banish the Arcane. What we do know is the Sisterhood was already weary of it’s use. So, do some inductive reasoning there.
Regardless, it’s still irrelevent to Malfurion teaching the Druidic ways to his people.
The Point being made was that he established Druidism as a fundamental, pivotal aspect to their Culture.
LITERALLY, one half of their Religion.
No, you’ve repeated yourself many, many times.
You’ve yet to prove it.
I’ve granted you that as a Night Elf, Broll had a loyalty to his Priestess. As a Druid a member of the Cenarion Circle, he had no obligation to her and falls directly under the Leader of the Cenarion Circle, which is Malfurion (or then Fandrel).
In other words, if given conflicting order from Tyrande and Malfurion, he’d follow Malfurion, both as his leader AND as his mentor.
“Both of them had futilely hoped that Tyrande would formally reprimand Staghelm for his strange activities, but the high priestess had only reminded them that the Cenarion Circle operated outside of her authority.”
Tyrande’s own words, given to you by Shandris herself.
So your literal argument is just misplaced blame?
Even when the Lore specifically says the Druid’s established the Law, you dismiss it because it disproves your point?
The Druid’s Banned the Arcane. Malfurion was the Archdruid of all the Druids. Any law passed by the Druids would come directly from their Archdruid himself. Some actual deductive reasoning that’s actually supported by Lore.
So, by your own Preconceived notion of Tyrande’s absolute Authority, anything done is by her design, even when it’s not explicitly stated…
He didn’t though… druidism, to a privative degree but still, existed in Kaldorei society before Malfurion. Malfurion simply started the druidic tradition of passing down the lessons of Cenarius, who by the way is the Son of Elune.
We have deviated to far from the point though, because the only reason you brought this up was because you believe Malfurion and the Druidic culture of the Kaldorei, is what lead to banishment of the Arcane… That’s not true.
NO, this is wrong. Go read the conversation he had with Tyrande. He says he rather go alone, and the exact thing Tyrande says to him is this “You will not. If I must order you to-” Then he agrees before she can finish that thought. That is not even the only time it is implied that Tyrande has authority over him either.
Tyrande does not have authority over the Circle as an institution. However the Kaldorei members that exist within the circle are still her subordinates.
No, he would not. Tyrande had every ability to reprimand Staghelm. In fact the implication that Shandris had hoped for it proves she could have. She didn’t because she is not a Tyrannical ruler, and Staghelm wasn’t doing anything noticeably criminal.
Not acting on your authority doesn’t mean the authority isn’t there. And we have several examples that Tyrande has authority over Kaldorei druids.
It literally doesn’t. This is never said anywhere.
You are reading something and inferring something that it does not say.
Show me a canon source that says that explicitly. You can’t.
"Although they are highly respected by most mortal societies, druids have nothing to do with creating or enforcing law. " Warcraft Encyclopedia
" For thousands of years, the Sisters of Elune held by far the most power; as one of a small handful of kaldorei organizations to survive the War of the Ancients, with membership based upon aptitude and not lineage, high priestess Tyrande Whisperwind reorganized the order to direct the Sentinels. She herself became the sole ruler of the night elf nation, remaining that way for thousands of years." - Warcraft Encyclopedia
Among a secret sect who had no practice of teaching their knowledge to the rest of Kaldoreo Society so your point is moot.
It’s implied that Tyrande had NO Authority over Fandrel.
Also, Tyrande was at least aware of his suspicious activities (implied in the same book) yet did absolutely nothing because of it.
So, either she COULDN’T do anything, or was grossly incompetent for not even investigating it when it was brought to her attention.
You’re literally arguing with your own source now.
You know what? You’re hopeless. Tyrande herself couldn’t even convince you from your own delusions.
They were not a secret sect, they were a small community of Kaldorei. They -were- Kaldorei society, albeit a small one. The point stands.
Or, because of her fear of becoming the next Queen Azshara, is hesitant to exercise the full extent of her authority without a significant cause.
It is difficult to know why she didn’t act, but it’s a fact that she -could- as implied by Shandris’ hope that she -would-.
My source literally says the opposite of what you claim. Since you wont cite your source, I am assuming - Actually, not assumeing - I know you can’t prove it.
They didn’t pass on their knowledge so the average Kaldorei wouldn’t of been instituted into it.
IT WAS NOT A PART OF THEIR CULTURE.
It’s implied that Shandris wanted her to go beyond her authority, to which Tyrande refused to do.
My source IS your source, damn it.
I literally posted, word for word, from Wowpedia (My bolding.)
YOUR SOURCE supports MY Position.
ALSO from your own source
" The Sisters are a major and active night elven political faction, and fulfil the role of magistrates, officials, and others for the night elven government. The highest-ranking of the Sisters are privy to the government’s most important secrets, such as the original condition of Malfurion Stormrage and the power struggle that erupted between Tyrande Whisperwind and Fandral Staghelm
The Sisterhood of Elune is the highest echelon of the priesthood that serves the goddess, Elune. The Sisterhood has remained exclusively female up until recent times. This is largely because of a common belief that the deepest mysteries of Elune can only be comprehended by women. Although the vast majority of Elune’s priesthood is still comprised of night elven women, the order has come to accept Kaldorei males into its ranks as well."
That’s the whole point. It WASN’T a part of their tradition. It was only practiced among a few members of an order of Magi who practiced a form of Arcane that only vaguely had anything to do with modern Druidism.
By all accounts, it probably didn’t even exist outside of Suramar and their practice died out with all but Valewalker Farodin.
It was heavily implied.
No you didn’t. You dismissed it as “Missplaced Blame” without even addressing it.
But it was… We know it was. We know there were protodruids that existed before Malfurion. We know the Dark Trolls the preceded the Night Elves sought to live a life in harmony with the wilds… And on page 94 of Chronicle Vol 1. Cenarius befriended the early night elves and taught them druidic wisdom and the mysteries of the natural world.
Again, this is not relevant to your point… Because you said the Druids banned the Arcane, which is not true… for the 3rd time.
No it wasn’t at all, and you have no proof.
No I didn’t… You are putting words in my mouth. I said Dath’remar targeted the druids because the druids consisted of many former Highborne Magi… Traitors in his eyes.
AND IT HAD NO CITATION! MEANING IT’S NOT FROM ANY CANON SOURCE!
This is the quote directly take from the Warcraft encyclopedia
" Yet there is a widespread belief to this day that the deepest mysteries of the changeable moon goddess can only be comprehended by other women. The Sisterhood has therefore remained exclusively female thus far."
I wasn’t aware of this until now but that’s pretty interesting. I wonder if the kaldorei proto-druids were something like Gilnean harvest witches or drust/Kul Tiran thornspeakers.
“The night elves were losing touch with nature. The number of night elves pursuing their studies with the demigod dwindled, and Cenarius was grieved to realize that all his work had been for naught. Reluctantly he departed night elf lands. He resolved that he would respect their choice, however much he disagreed with it. From that point forward, Cenarius retreated into the wilds of the world and avoided most sentient races until they came to doubt his very existence.”
Then Malfurion Led the Night Elves BACK to Druidism after they were led astray.
Still shaped their Current Culture.
You only latched on to this argument to distract from your losing position.
If Tyrande didn’t want to do it, she would of said that. It’s not like she had any reason to hide that from Shandris. Tyrande would of shared it if that was the case.
She said that it wasn’t in her authority, not that it was her prerogative.
Literally means she said she COULDN’T.
And again, you’re just using that as an excuse. The Highborne blamed the Druids for passing the law. They Called it “The Druid’s Law!” Not the Night Elves’ Law. Not Tyrande’s Law. Not the Sisterhood’s Law.
The Druid’s Law!
Now show me your Proof that it was Tyrande’s Law.
You know what, I’m sick of arguing with you. I start this as a joke but your just too obstinate and adversarial for a friendly conversion.
And you never actually answered my Question:
If it was up to Tyrande and was by her decree, would she of spared Dath’Remar after his attack on Ashenvale, after already giving him his second chance for helping Azshara the first time?
I’ll even throw you another Question that’s been bugging me.
If Tyrande had 100% authority over all Night Elves, Were the Watchers committing Treason when the Defied her order to release Illidan? Who was Sentenced to Imprisonment by Malfurion. Even though they answered to the Head of the Government only, they still openly refused a direct order from Tyrande.
Night Elf society is not matriarchal. And neither side has absolute power. Tyrande runs the govt and the religion, meanwhile Malfurion has the immense respect of many night elves, many demi-gods, and nature it self. Id argue in the world at large, Malfurion has even more political power than Tyrande does, but Tyrande has slightly more political power in night elf society directly.
“I am Tyrande Whisperwind, ruler of the Night Elves.” Stormrage
The fact that the word ruler is used should tell you all you need to know.
The arugment is old at this point. The devs have already said it’s a matriarchal society. The whole of the government is run by an organization that has been only female for thousands of years and the leadership of said organization had been female for thousands of years since its inception. So it’s a matriarchy by default. Does the mean that men and the druids are irrelevant and powerless, no. But let’s just remember who has been in charge and the nature of that organization. The society didn’t start that way and probably wasn’t immediately a matriarchy after wota but became so due to the circumstances of Tyrande being the only one left in charge.
Tyrande has such absolute power, she had to kill her way through the Wardens in WC3, because they apparently did not recognize her authority to undo Malfurions orders to keep Illidan imprisoned. This is direct evidence that Malfurion holds more sway than Tyrande does. Note that the Wardens guarding Illidan were mostly female, yet held to the original orders from Malfurion to the death.
You will find Tyrande’s political power quite limited outside of the priestesses of Elune, despite her claims. Maiev and Fandral were heavy hitters in the political arena who visibly showed no respect to Tyrande’s claim to leadership.
If anything Tyrande was like a Regent for until when Malfurion comes back from his hibernation periods. She may have titles that claim otherwise, but even during the war of thorns, everyone listened to Malfurion and looked to Malfurion, not Tyrande, for leadership.
Showing something weighs more than saying something. The Wardens fought to the death against Tyrande in WC3 to keep Illidan imprisoned. Which literally proves they respected Malfurions orders more than Tyrandes orders, since Malfurion is the one who ordered Illidan be kept imprisoned forever.
Its only the Priestesses of Elune and its directly adjacent organizations like the sentinels that follow the head priestess over all else.
What we saw in Darnassus was only a part of what is greater night elf society. Organizations like the Wardens, Moonguard, Cenarion Circle, and the Dryads and Keepers of the grove, who make up the other half of night elf society, dont acknowledge Tyrande as their supreme leader, rather they just respect her as the head priestess of Elune.
“Where the male Night Elf, female Night Elf are just standing right side by side, the Druid here, the female in front, female in front because that’s the Night Elf culture from Warcraft III, right? The Sentinels. The matriarchal society.” -Terran Gregory
Again with your circular reasoning.
You’re so entrenched into your own headcannon that EVERYTHING done is ALL Tyrande’s doing, and because Malfurion’s a Male, he’s never done anything that wasn’t also by Tyrande’s design.