Was thinking about how people are analyzing fist pump moments and “was that a victory?” The only unequivocally military victory by the players in BfA is Teldrassil. That was quite morally black.
Is it possible to have a clear victory without going morally black though? Many players don’t feel like the Battle of Dazar’alor is a victory. If killing the Zandalari King isn’t a military victory, then what would be? Anything short of a destruction of at least part of the city?
Not if you’re Horde.
Most of the complaints I’ve seen about Dazar’alor from Ally side either have to do with us attacking before the Zandalari join the Horde (thus our “victory” is against a neutral party who then joins our enemy to fight us) or compare it to Teldrasil, which I wouldn’t exactly wish on the Horde right now given how crushingly low Morale is. Then there’s Anduin actively pulling punches by not pursuing the Horde navy when we have them on the run because “we would be just like Sylvanas”. So I suppose actual victories do have to be morally black, but only because Blizz refuses to write the Alliance as anything but the Lawful Stupid savior of the Honorable Horde.
yeah but the attack is after the zandalari join and help the horde, in fact, they attack boralus before the raid.
that is not anduin, is jaina, and is not to pursuit the horde, is only not attack during the funeral, they will keep attacking after that
but yeah, the alliance keeps being stupidly lawful good just to save the horde because if the alliance goes full morally black, the horde would be gone by now.
as for the thread, i don’t know about the rest of my fellow alliance players but 8.1 is a victory for me, we achieved our objectives, we killed and raided the horde, and we didn’t lose anybody of importance in the process. and the horde didn’t get any of their objectives.
The horde is in a so bad shape that they depend on deus ex derek retcon to win the war, apparently.
i don’t know why the hell blizzard is so bad at writing faction war but here we are.
The first part I’ll admit to being wrong about, but was I always wrong about the last part or did they change that at some point? My highest level is the free boost with the expansion and they’re still 111 so I’m getting most of my information second hand from story/server forums.
they never changed it, is just that people assumed when the datamined text was out that it was anduin the one who didn’t wanted to be like the banshe because it seems more appropriate to his character, but everyone was surprised when we found out that the one with that dialogue was actually jaina, as we hear from her VO.
is not exactly OOC but is not exactly the smartest thing to say. that’s why the “information” was that it was anduin. but also, they will keep attacking AFTER the funeral is over.
so yeah,i think that you have been wrong the entire time.
This is only partly correct. The Horde and Alliance 8.1 War Campaigns make clear that the Zandalari are in a Military alliance with the Horde, even if they have not been absorbed into the Horde itself until the BfDA.
My poor sweet cinnamon roll, he’s actually quite thoughtful and intelligent, but everyone thinks so little of him.
Victory without being evil is capturing territory while allowing civilians to either flee, or occupying them without any unnecessary cruelty.
I’ve been wracking my brains trying to spell victory with “lol evil”. I’m stumped.
Yes, dear lord yes, or at least without going destroy all the things evil.
Teldrassil would have been far more acceptable for both sides if we had captured the city.
In this scenario Horde gets a Conquering Army Power Fantasy while the Alliance gets an Under Ground Resistance Fantasy where NEs get to not be totally helpless victims.
They could have had us capture Teldrassil instead of burning it. Shrug. But I guess they wanted to try and retell MoP’s story.
As both a Night Elf main and an Alliance player, I definitely don’t feel 8.1 is a victory. Though that’s because my focus is on the Kaldorei and your focus seems to be on Dazar’alor; not that I count that as a success, either.
And it’s a little cavalier saying we don’t lose “anybody of importance” with what happens to Mekkatorque.
Teldrassil would have been an acceptable Horde victory if they’d stuck to the initial plan of capturing it, not burning it and the Night Elf civilians.
It’s hard to provide rigid criteria for what would or wouldn’t be acceptable as not evil. However, I think that respect - even for an enemy you hate - would be a good rule of thumb.
The Alliance shows respect to Saurfang at Lordaeron, to Sylvanas in offering her a chance to surrender, to the Zandalari in mourning rites for their king. But it mostly looks like a one way street right now.
Of course it’s possible. It’s even been done, in almost every Horde starting zone you have Alliance groups threatening the Horde and being defeated through simple force of arms. Except in the Forsaken starting experience where you have Alliance groups threatening the Horde and the Forsaken defeating them through doing what the Forsaken do.
I suppose the questions here are, “Would it hurt the Alliance play experience to give the Horde a straight win against them in communal content?” and “Would that damage be worth the benefit to the Horde story?”
they already joined before this, you have sylvanas saying that they have secured the zandalari fleet for the horde in the horde war campaign, and unless they changed it in the alliance war campaign you see zandalari trolls in horde tabards attacking anglepoint
To me it’s easy to say that but look what happened with Siege of Orgrimmar. A lot of Alliance players didn’t view that as a victory even though they did capture it.
The Alliance did it with the Horde and then left asking for nothing besides peace and let the Horde keep Azshara. It didn’t feel like that great of a victory since the Alliance helped us remove an Orc racist that was a threat to the Horde along with Alliance, and we even see this in the Blank Scroll. Though I’m fairly certain that had Varian requested at least returning Gilneas for letting the Goblins have Azshara it would have went over better.
That is different than an actual occupation of Teldrassil.
Well, I did feel like killing the Zandalari King will be a victory- the only victory the alliance will be allowed to have, most likely.
Keep in mind that the Zandalari had already sunk an entire Alliance Fleet before we even properly met them. They then receive a Horde diplomatic emissary. They may not have been part of the Horde at that time, but that’s far from neutral behavior.
Well they sunk said ships after the Alliance had freed their captive diplomat. Though, more technical, the Alliance and Horde had already attacked them when they went about trying to resurge the Troll empire in Cataclysm.