AoTC is only really useful to get your alts into H Raz pugs and for the occasional mount. Sure it’s easy now but how useful is it for your alts to run H Raz the last few weeks of the patch?
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Only if I use my /console commands.
Heroic Raz has DPS checks. It doesnt only need skills for its fight mechanics but it also requires high decent gear to beat it.
I did a lot of Heroic Raz attempts. I understand why there are Heroic Raz choosy groups requiring 410+. It so happened that my KSM brought me to 410 allowing me to be invited to such Heroic Raz elite groups.
I got Heroic Raz kill without buying a carry. I would say that most of my efforts was just on M+. AoTC was just a bonus after I get heavily geared from KSM.
REALLY easy? No.
Achievable For sure.
If you think it’s really easy, yet you aren’t a mythic raider…You’re probably getting carried and don’t even know it.
It is an appropriate level of a challenge.
Your post almost sounds like a strange form of a humble brag TBH.
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Sylvanas was also what I was thinking of as a difficult fight, and more difficult than Raz - but most of Sylvanus’s difficulty was just how long and tedious it was. Probably one of the worst, unfun boss fights ever.
Pre nerf and before the raid is geared up in M+ gear, she had VERY harsh dps/healing checks,
Post nerfs and with most of the raid in M+ gear she was substantially easier.
Tell me about it. I think they should have split it up into two fights like N’Zoth or Deathwing.
It’s odd because at over 10 minutes, Razageth is ALSO one of the longer fights we’ve had, but she doesn’t feel as draining on my soul as Sylvanas did.
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Some tiers getting AOTC early can be kinda rough, cause usually the end boss is harder then like the first 3 bosses on mythic
I think Raz was a fight that really showed how valuable coordination with group/personal defenses can be.
Groups that coordinated defensives for the challenging overlaps (like 3rd bomb pushback into sparks into 4th bomb in P1 and the sparks into pushback wave in p3) and had players use personals well had a MUCH easier time than just expecting everyone to wing it.
Same with maintaining/coordinating offensive cool downs during the shield phase.
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If PUGs are now happily carrying people through heroic Raz, that would tend to reinforce my point that AOTC is really easy to achieve.
In any case, my post is about the overall fight itself and the average knowledge and stats in a random PUG. The fight itself does not appear that hard. The mechanics are really straightforward and the gear needed to easily meet the sporadic hard DPS checks and the few heal checks appears to be common enough now that randomly thrown together groups can together meet the checks.
Maybe when the season started.
Well, the underlying premise of the thread is that I don’t even see why AOTC is considered any kind of big deal now – that it isn’t even really anything to brag about. At the beginning of the season, sure.
But those days have passed.
That’s definitely true. I’ve always been frustrated that getting my raiders to use health pots or health stones always feels like pulling teeth. For Razageth we started telling people that they should plan to use them on the specific overlaps you mentioned since the healers will have limited ability to save them.
Lo and behold, suddenly we started getting through those mechanics and Wipefest suddenly started showing everyone using health stones.
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It kind of should be. Most endgame players are plenty geared enough to get AOTC at this point.
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I haven’t seen any other raids since Onyxia and Lich King lol, but I hope Blizzard has at least always kept this as part of every raid.
I’ve always thought this is supposed to be the main characteristic of what makes a raid special, and not just people burning down a world boss.
Yeah, health potions heal for a ton (non-tank) and are super cheap. It’s frustrating when people won’t use them. And obviously healthstones are free.
Coordinating healer cooldowns, AMZ, rallying cry, health potions/stones, personal defensives, and even hybrid dps healing cooldowns during specific overlaps helps SO much.
I think some people get scared they need to hold their defensive “for a rainy day” and never use it, or use it AFTER the damage when it’s way less effective.
I know monks are spoiled with multiple defensives but I have one up for every bomb/spark in phase 1 except the first (healing is light until then) and every shield/spark in phase 3.
It’s always a good idea to do, but it depends on the tuning if it becomes more “required” and that is a spectrum depending on your teams skill level and gear.
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Not every raid, though I would stress that that doesn’t make the raid easy.
I tend to make a distinction between a fight being easy and a fight being simple. Razageth is a simple fight in that none of her mechanics are very complicated and the solutions to her mechanics are generally pretty straightforward. She is not however an easy fight due to how much raw power she throws around both in the amount of damage she does to the raid and in how much damage they need to do to her.
So when a fight is difficult, it can either be difficult because it’s complicated or because it’s intense. Very rarely, you’ll get a fight which is both. (I think Kil’Jaden for instance was both.) If a fight is only difficult because it’s complicated but not very intense, then you can usually bully the fight with your better players so long as you have enough people who have divined the mechanic in order to not auto-fail. In those situations you usually don’t need to coordinate group utility since if you’re at the point where it matters, you screwed up and are going to wipe anyway.
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Nature’s Vigil continues to be my favorite new toy for Druid and I did in fact notice that its cooldown lines up perfectly with each of Razageth’s Stormshields.
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PVE is all scripted stuff
I did my hard core raiding back in the early days, and skipped BFA/SL altogether. I can safely say when it comes to VOTI, I haven’t felt at all like I was learning dance steps I had to memorize (along with 39 other people) in the same sense I did back then (eg. BWL). DBM takes a lot of the need for that out of the raiding experience certainly, but it’s more or less simply don’t stand in stuff and knowing what a couple of specific mechanics are before they happen. The whole process is pretty dumbed-down so some form of the raiding experience is accessible to more people. The Raz fight isn’t difficult in itself. Finding people willing to do some homework on how to play their class correctly to maximize their contributions to the fight, and enough brain cells not to stand in bad and interrupt orbs is the real challenge.
I picked up AOTC on my warrior last week. What made it ‘easy’ in the end was the good fortune of the PUG I was in consisting of several players who knew the fight well and their being WAY over-geared for it (as others have suggested). It took a couple of weeks of playing PUG roulette (and losing) to get there. I did my homework to ensure I wasn’t dead weight during attempts, geared as best I could, and the rest was left to chance.
If some casual PUG group will take a 395 LFR hero, I’ll happily join in and try for AOTC.
Not quite sure if that’s the case though.
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It’s not bad bad but it’s just not fun. I think I enjoyed sylvanus better than I did raz and sylvanus was awful.