6 Likes
HAHA, this made me spit up my coffee. I appreciate the laugh.
3 Likes
Frost lost itâs identity since Nyâalotha, and Unholy does tank damage without PI, and requires a masterâs degree in convoluted tripe in order to understand.
Itâs time for a hard rework, yeah.
6 Likes
so ive been playing frost DK since wrath. to be honest ever since Legion screwed frost over its just been terrible⌠this expansion just hates frost dk rn, i do my rotation perfect and gear is 472 and i only can pull like 90k dps max steady and no matter how i build or change stats around it makes no difference. so i do think dk in general need a rework.
5 Likes
If 90k dps is your ceiling in 472 gear then youâre not doing your rotation anywhere near perfect.
5 Likes
With hero talents on the horizon, I donât see a rework coming. The hero talents are made with how the class is currently designed in consideration
3 Likes
They specifically mentioned that Mountain Thane would involve changes to Furyâs baseline abilities & talents available so that the switch to Thunder Clap over WW would be seamless and never a DPS loss, which is especially important since thereâs plenty of talents in the Warrior class tree that affect WW and not TC.
So saying âI donât see a rework because the Hero trees are designed based on how the classes are currently designedâ is wrong on both accounts.
2 Likes
And why didnât they specifically mention anything about DKâs trees then? If a rework is coming on release of the hero talents they wouldâve mentioned or teased something like that
Unless you think hero talents ARE the rework?
Mountain Thane isnt a rework to Fury, it just makes it so that a few talents that now improve WW now also improve TC. That is the extent of what we know and this is in the Mountain Thane talents.
Hero talents are designed in how the specs work currently, there isnt anything there to suggest things are going to change for the regular specs.
They did? Thereâs developer videos for every Hero tree where they discuss their goals for both the tree & what work theyâre doing to ensure the trees work with the underlying specs.
A rework doesnât have to change how the class is played.
Mages play pretty much the same, as do Paladins and Rogues.
1 Like
Objectively correct fact
8 Likes
Yeah focusing on duel wielding and using BoS was a big mistake. Frost died when they forced DW on it, and Forced BoS uptime gameplay. Designed the entire talent tree around gaining obnoxious amounts more of runic power and runes so you could spam obliterate more while you breathe on people
Frost wouldve been better if they focused on its melee strikes, and just made the spec weapon agnostic. If they didnt design around half the tree to cater to unlimited BoS builds, Or even BoS literally at all
4 Likes
Frost died when 2h was hamfisted back in for âbig Oblitsâ instead of being integrated as a weapon agnostic choice.
So your problem with the tree design is the easy access to Horn of Winter? Because everything in the tree that isnât Horn and IF are slanted in design towards Obliteration, and RoTFC & Runic Command are easily skippable.
Thereâs zero real design space in the tree towards BoS that Frost in general wouldnât want and every change since Beta has been to push Obliteration towards being a competitive alternative, and essentially failing until the Legendary.
And âso you could spam obliterate more while you breathe on peopleâ, seriously? So itâs fine to spam Obliterate as the spec already does, you just have an issue with passively spending RP? Youâre so full of it itâs unreal.
Ya totally not in BFA when it was DW only and did noodle damage
Totally not in legion when DW was first added as the only option, and frost needed insane 30%+ buffs 20%+ buffs on several core abilities before it was even competetive, And even after those changes it wasnt even good until nighthold when it got access to both a busted tier bonus, and a busted DPS trinket that lowered ERWs CD by a lot
Then it died in ToS unholy became king, and oh would you look at that Obliteration became the primary playstyle in Antorus
Almost as if, even DW frost, Was really bad and poorly designed. Arguably worse than 2H design considering it was catered so hard and still came out like dogcrap
far more intelligent of a thought
My problem with our talent tree is many things and i wasnt even just specifically talking about frosts exclusive tree, or else i wouldve explicitly said Frosts talent tree. They designed a lot of our tree around bloating our resources so feeding BoS and Garg could work, But in doing so you break the entire economy of runes and runic power abilities and what damage they are allowed to deal. When you have massive runic power dump abilities that exist such as BoS and gargoyle you cant have abilities like froststrike or deathcoil hitting hard because if they did then the entire spec is nothing short of obnoxiously strong for pvp and pve especially in unholys case where the deathcoils happen at the same time as the garg hits
Deny it all you want, Blame 2h all you want, Blame MOTFW all you want. BoS has always been the problem. Its very existence is the direct cause to how our rune and runic power economy functions, and its very existence is to blame for our other abilities doing so little damage on a consistent basis
I couldnt give a damn if you think obliteration is just as equal to blame, because its not, This issue has been around since post legion, for all the time where obliteration was bad. Obliteration might be a problem, But you cant blame obliteration for why frost has the problems it does when its had these problems in Legion, BFA, SL and DF. 2 of those xpacs being where obliterate wasnt actually doing 50% of your damage
BoS caters
1:Assimilation
2:Coldthirst
3:Unholy Bond+Hysteria (for ur argument sake weâll count these 2 as 1)
4:Runic Command
5:Horn of Winter
6:Rage of the Frozen Champion
7:Invigorating Freeze
Obliteration caters
1:Cleaving Strikes
2:Icecap
3:Frigid Executioner
4:Cold Blooded Rage
5:MOTFW (hardly even count this, its not intended as an obliteration cater as much as it was a weapon type cater. It just so happens that weapon type prefers obliteration. Reason i wouldnt count it is because since i believe the idea of weapon homogenizing, and this talent exists purely for 2h to not get crushed by multiple runeforge DW, its more weapon type than obliteration)
even still, theres just simply far more in frosts overall kit that is designed mainly for BoS, And far more things in the general DK tree that help DW BoS builds substantially more than 2h obliteration builds
Despite that difference in what playstyle gets the most attention and design space, Obliteration is keeping up really good, And easily if it had the same level of design space as BoS would be far superior to BoS. The only real bad thing about obliteration is PoF lasting 12s, And or Icecap only being 2s and DnD cleave
In PvP its a little deeper than that but thats still a pretty simple way to put it
Arguably not
Yup, I have a problem with passively DPSing in general. All relevant DPS should always come from active abilities that require you to continue to press them and weave between them
6 Likes
And thatâs incredibly disingenuous, because the Obliteration of Antorus is nothing like the Obliteration of today that you preach so fondly of.
Iâve said this consistently and you ignore it, so Iâll bold it here so maybe you wonât miss it this time:
Breath has no impact on the baseline kit doing little to no damage. The overabundance of KM procs, tied with KM being a guaranteed crit, ignoring armor, and scaling with mastery is the reason the baseline kit does little damage.
Doesnât matter if Breath and Obliteration were both removed tomorrow. Itâs not a capstone issue itâs a Killing Machine issue. A little bit of a Pillar ramping issue, too, but if you remove the ramp or cap it low, it might as well be removed at that point then.
As long as KM is both a guaranteed crit, 100% Frost damage, and isnât a flat PPM system, this will continue to be a problem unless they redesign Frost to suddenly not care about Obliterate or KM as much.
Theyâre not really BoS catered talents, but by your logic, Unholy Bond caters to Obliteration as well since it amps FC & RI which are just as huge for it. Improved Frost Strike, Enduring Strength (since you get far more Obliterate crits during Pillar with Obliteration than BoS), GA (since you canât & wonât pick it up with the current BoS design), Avalanche (gives RI for free so 2h can get both the best runeforges).
Even if we remove Avalanche & ES since they both âbenefit equallyâ, thatâs still Imp FS, GA, thatâs still 2 more you left out.
And I find it odd you include Assimilation (and ignored Runic Attenuation) when itâs something Unholy also takes. It is very clearly not a âBoS slantedâ talent, it should be a DK slanted talent. The fact that Obliteration & Blood choose to ignore it without a care is more of a problem than it existing in the first place.
And again, theyâre not really catering to BoS but the underlying identity of DK. Of the above, the only ones that really cater to BoS are Thirst, RC, and IF. RoTFC should be a compelling option for all Frost DKs vs. FE since it gets more Rimes & RI stacks, both core elements of FDK.
Then why did its performance shoot up after they removed 2h? Its undisputable at this point. In WoD Frost was a garbage split spec worthless piece of junk. When they removed 2h and started focusing on the spec what happened? It it drop in performance or did it increase?
It increased in performance.
This removes DW entirely. From a spec that is historically DW, making the spec weapon agnostic makes it a 2h spec. The path of least resistance and the abondance of 2h strength weapons in the game, it kills what the spec was designed for.
No it hasnt.
No it isnt. BoS builds drop other rune spenders completely. They can buff up Frost Strike and Glacial Advance and not impact anything with the rest of the kit. It doesnt want to use them in order to keep RP being spent on BoS. The reason why they cant buff up Obliteration builds are because of 500k Obliterates.
the rotation is literally the same
and i dont preach so fondly of obliteration, I preach more fondly of it than BoS though thats for sure
Hey monkey, Care to explain how that was the case in BFA before the KM change existed? What about Legion when until antorus all frosts buttons hit like a noodle
I get it, its real hard to cope with the facts
the deflection to try and avoid how little basekit damage frost did even before KM rank 2 is absolutely GOLDEN LOL
They are all BoS catered talents, All those talents do not benefit obliteration builds in nearly anyway, and unholy bond the only one that can be argued, is SIGNIFICANTLY better on dual wield builds that can use multiple runeforges, and BoS builds
xd
flavorless filler talent that benefits all DK specs equally
Benefits BoS just as much especially since we live in a Perma BoS world
GA and Avalanche are hilarious to use as examples, Your argument here is very weak home dog i really hate to break it to you but you should just give up and accept the spec is catered far more around BoS
With what i said above in mind, nah, And even if i did its still -1 on BoS
Im still right xdd
Massive bulk RP compared to small overtime RP is it really that hard for you to figure out why one benefits and caters toward BoS heavily while the other one is more of just a general good passive
You know what i find odd? The fact that when i mentioned assimilation, you completely ignored the part where i mentioned that the talent was designed with BoS and Garg in mind, Both brainless and toxic playstyles that need to be erased from DK design. Massive RP spam dumps are unhealthy for the class and its rune economy
You smoke lots of good drugs i assume
âtHe uNdERlYinG IdEntItY oF dKâ
Homie they change that identity of DK every xpac it seems now, Its just real interesting that frost dk became both garbage and unfun the moment a massive runic power drain became its primary playstyle for like 3 xpacs straight and while the entire spec started to get designed around said RP drain
4 Likes
BAHA⌠not only does it not benefit all DK specs equally since all DK specs dont have access to it, it doesnt even benefit BoS builds AT ALL. Because you dont use Frost Strike. So improving something you dont use at all with a build is quite literally a waste. Improved Frost Strike is an Obliteration talent through and through.
Rework the look of the minions, like actually more then one all the time or something on the line of Diablo Necroâs - would be nice to look like a DK and not just some handicap arseehole following you around that is bugged most the time - Blizzard is right down lazy at formulating a look of the class - they mostly look generic and 3/4 finished cause someone didnât want to be creative and make something like these Asian games - fook some of those classes visuals and makeups are awesome!!! then you open wow and the classes look like Walmart brand toons - all they do is make each armor class look the same to save time⌠and then fight over the math behind the toon -
They have had 20 YEARS LMAO 20 years is a long time to be doing nothing and taking peoples money⌠Just waiting for Ashes or a game to come out that gets this along with the art styles and actually making a crafting system that doesnât again feed the top 10-20% of players - World of Add-onâs needs a revamp and not this in game pay for it upgrade they are slowly doing with each expac. they really missed the boat with âWorldâs of Warcraftâ aka wow 2 - would be the same game but updated with new engine and tech to match what the player base is asking for.