Is BfA the Horde's lowest point?

Lore Story Forum
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I hated the Burning of Teldrassil for so many reasons.

One, there’s no way those dinky catapults would have reached it. Anyone who’s actually flown there would know just what a massive gap there is from the shore in Ashenvale to the tree itself, it’s miles and miles away. Might be a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, but it just didn’t sit well with me given how impossible it would have been.

Two, that all those Horde races and ESPECIALLY the new allied races from Legion just mindlessly went along with a plan to launch a massive invasion of Night Elf lands with the express purpose to kill Malfurion and occupy an enemy capital.

It just makes no sense. The Tauren alone should have been adamantly against it and they shouldn’t have been alone…kill Malfurion who was one of the biggest advocates for peaceful co-existence with the Horde and someone who held much respect in Tauren culture in particular due to his deep ties to their druids?

You think Tyrande is mad NOW? Just imagine the incandescent fury that would have resulted if Malfurion was actually murdered as planned, sadness is NOT the resulting emotion the Night Elves would have been feeling if that came to pass. If anything, they’d probably go absolutely berserk.

As well, who really thinks the Alliance would just sit by and let the Horde just hold one of their capital’s hostage? That idea is just naive and Sylvanas knew that but just used it as an excuse to get other Horde leaders on board, she knew the Alliance would be absolutely incensed over it and come at them with everything they had.

And the allied races just going along with this is just impossible. Don’t forget, the Alliance helped them too in Legion so they would have very little reason to hate them aside from the Mag’har Orcs whose story is frankly just a horribly contrived mess. And then the Warchief suddenly tells them they are going to outright invade one of their capitals and kill their leader?

Yeah right, most of them would have refused or even left the Horde over such a needlessly aggressive course of action against erstwhile allies if this scenario was remotely realistic, especially after watching Sylvanas needlessly burn Teldrassil for no reason and kill thousands of innocents.

Even the Mag’har should have balked at that, there was nothing remotely honorable about it. That they all loyally stood by the Horde after that atrocity was just horribly contrived and totally unrealistic.

And finally, they almost High Elf’d an entire race that is one of the most powerful Alliance races militarily and utterly humiliated them just to get that point across that Sylvanas was a threat. Night Elves didn’t deserve that, this level of destruction and carnage was just an insult and completely unnecessary.

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The Allied Races went along with it for the same reason the Core Races went along with it. For the same reason that Teldrassil was not once allowed to be even mentioned on the Horde side of the story, outside of Saurfang and Thrall who were removed from most of the story. Blizzard could not, or did not care enough to, justify why the vast majority of the Horde would follow Sylvanas after she turned them into accessories for an act of Genocide. While the WoT is easy to explain if Alliance actions proceeding it were allowed to count … Teld was just too inconvient for them to bother writing around. But … they just needed to have her settup SLs.

The easy solution of course for this would be to simply have gone with a “entrapment” narrative. With the WoT being reasonably justified as an independent event (and with how Saurfang ran it), but Sylvie using that event to trap the Horde into committing to the conflict for as long as she could use them. Too terrified of weakening themselves to Alliance retaliation (which would be seen as totally justified), to try to take Sylvanas out themselves. However … Blizz was so afraid of people realizing that it was just Garrosh 2.0 … they threw that option “mostly” away to instead lie to us all for two years. To keep that lovely secret of her betrayal a “surprise” of course.

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Who are these people?

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Part of the issue might be the way writer’s are using characters as expys for different viewpoints within a faction. It’s not necessarily a wrong writing strategy but it can’t exist in a vacuum. So Saurfang is the expy for “honor horde” dissident pov but his story is very specific towards him and doesn’t really work when it feels like everyone else is hive mind going along with the warchief.
And once again what the writers want to happen takes precedence over everything else. Half the horde can’t do anything about Sylvanas because she can’t leave yet cause when she leaves is when it was decided that Shadowlands should start so the rest of the horde just putz around I guess. Like the hand of the author is so prevalent in the overall story that I can’t see anything else but it’s sweaty palm.

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Man its weird. In hindsight, an entrapment route for the Horde here would have made too many of existing story points up through Azshara make way too much sense. Almost like it was the original intent, but then abandoned, due to the backlash for MoP2.0?

  • So many of Sylvie’s tactics only make sense in the lens of prolonguing and escalating the conflict. Teld sure. But also who she chose to put in Darkshore. The ressurection of the Undead NEs. Even Derek. All of which would reinforce the idea that the Alliance wants revenge for Teld to suppress descent and rebellion by aggroing them.
  • So many of Anduin’s tactics make sense if his goal was to prove that narrative wrong. To wage a war that didn’t reinforce the idea that the Alliance was invested in a War of Extermination against the Horde for Teld; to give the Horde itself some breathing space to turn on her.
  • Baine’s breaking point makes more sense, as its less “this is the arbitrary event I can’t stand” and more the “this is the moment he decided security and safety were just no longer worth sacrificing his most cherished ideals, and risking his own death to act on those ideals”.
  • Who was on the Horde’s boats in Naz’jatar, riddled with what likely would have been prospective rebels. With the escalation tactic of Derek subverted, now was the time to start culling prospective leaders that might side with the reappeared Saurfang and Thrall.

Its … kind of crazy how much better most of the existing story beats work if simply placed in this lens. Its even thematically almost an opposite of the second war, where this time the Horde people don’t want to continue to conflict … but feel forced to by the narrative of their Warchief.

But … it would have given away the “surprise” betrayal if they had.

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Pls, stop Droite in your “Alliance have it sooo good overdrive”, its awfull and this argument can´t hold argumentatively longer then a single minute.

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Then allow your faction to actually do some grey stuff. Act on their aggression. Be fallible enough to be tricked into grey acts, with their own concerns and ambitions used against them. With consequences that come from those mistakes. That’s all that’s needed, but … its never allowed. For example, consider that to date … the only person to apologize for the Purge of Dalaran … is Aethas. He wasn’t responsible for it, he only found out at the moment of that faction’s escape … but he’s the one that apologized for the purge of his own people.

The Horde was in the wrong, even there. And despite apparent regret, Jaina and Vareesa were functionally portrayed as in the right as a result of that apology. Hows that for insulation?

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Notice how, once it starts making them uncomfortable, they immediately try to shut you down and tell you to stop talking about it? Just proves you right in the end.

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Why do you assume it’s the players fault and not the writers? You think the Alliance can’t do grey stuff because Zahirwrite forbids it??

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My Faction? I play Horde and Alliance, sorry, i´m not a “faction” guy.

You know, that’s exactly why I would have let Tyrande really escalate absolutely, you want a grey conflict, grey conflicts mean that both sides have legitimate reasons to act the way they act. The Horde has just as much right to protect itself from a crusade of destruction as it would have for internal conflicts within the Alliance.

Tyrande, as a Night Warrior, would have been an enemy that is as insurmountable to the Horde as Sylvanas was to the Alliance. In the end…every side lost…both sides make huge mistakes and followed Sylvanas goal…its end in an war of annihilation and costs both factions deeply.

You always accuse the story of washing the alliance clean of everything. If you were to apply the consequence that is sometimes demanded for the actions of the Alliance, the Horde would no longer exist.

I said that the argumentation did not last two seconds here in the forum because many people here in the forum have already argued for more grey conflicts, and so have I.

And even allianceplayers, you know :wink:

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I don’t think its the players fault, I do think that many of them do expect it though. Any time the Alliance has been allowed to do something questionable, or grey, if its not immediately followed by immense validation or justifications … there is a pretty definitive negative response to it. And there are rarely negative consequences. The writers are at fault, but part of that is that I don’t think they feel free enough to do genuinely darker acts with Alliance players reactions to them when they do.

For example, that suggestion I had with Turalyon above. It gives him means, motive, opportunity, and even several outs that mean he’s not villain batted. Allows both him and the Alliance to be fallible enough to be manipulated by a group that would otherwise be their allies; to commit darker acts. Lets the Alliance faction get some seriously overdue big hits on the Horde in, at the cost of being tricked into ushering in the new big-bad. But … that suggestion is pretty negatively received from Alliance players; rushing to defend a man who should be trapped in the pre-2nd war era and has known nothing but war for a thousand years. A man who has a Dread-Lord bestie, and who’s currently supported by a council of questionable noble houses.

Why is it even Turalyon can’t be used in an antagonistic role? Not a villain role, but simply an antagonistic one? Why is it he has to acclimatize to a world so quickly, to as to not make political mistakes? Why is it is his comment about maybe reclaiming Alliance territory, doesn’t include territory held by Horde races; simply for the sake of not making him an aggressor? Why is this? Because even if the writers control it, they are aware the Alliance players would hate it.

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Many of these players, want grey acts, they just don’t want the baggage that comes with said acts. They still want to be Morally Justified in their actions. Long as you understand that you can’t have both.

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Why is it that you paint the alliance player base as a monolith without individual thoughts? Perhaps those players who are vocal against the Turalyon idea dislike it for other reasons. I can’t speak for them.

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The Alliance never faced Sylvanas. She wasn’t insurmountable, so much as she was relying on her patented “Plot Convenience” power she’s famous for. Outside of a single tussle with Malf. She largely avoided direct conflict.

As for Tyrande, there is nothing she could do after Teld that wouldn’t be completely justified. And Alliance players know that, which is why the wanted her especially to go on a killing spree. She could get away with anything, and while the acts themselves would have been grey … they were completely validated. Its her bringing righteous judgement on monsters.

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I agree with your points and the story you describe is the story they were telling.
Some additional points:
Use Derek to kill the Proudmoors only serves to reignite the war and stops any thought of negotiations. Bane’s interference is ethical but also logical, Horde was weeks from defeat and Sylvanas plan was to provoke the Alliance Bane stops that and by returning Derek to Jaina he starts the negotiations.
Anduin changed his perspective after Saurfang spared him twice. After Teldrasil Saurfang knows that he drank the blood again. After “Lost honor” Anduin knows it too.

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Alliance players aren’t a monolith, but with how the Alliance has been written over the last decade … there is a passive expectation that all actions be portrayed as super justified. Its not that they are opposed to “grey” acts, many just seem opposed to negative consequences for those acts. No villain batting. No character deaths at the hands of your own faction. No killing your own people for half an expansion. No having your enemies save you from yourselves.

And, to be fair, these experiences are horrific and they are right to not want to experience them. They maybe just aren’t right expecting to be allowed to do the types of horrific things the Horde faction is forced to, but with none of the consequences.

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Who on these forums want’s the Horde to be exterminated? Not many that’s for certain. There are many who don’t want Teldrassil to be swept under the rug, and want the Horde to pay for what they did. But don’t you dare conflate the two.

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The Horde players dislike it when we are villain batted and forced into a civil war, of course Alliance players would dislike it. As for an alliance antagonist idea(because Turalyon is another human, something everyone always complains about) i would chose Yrel. Her raise to power is a direct result of her journey with Alliance players. Any damage she causes can be pinned on them to a certain extent. I haven’t seen any alliance players hate on Yrel’s holy crusade.

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Yrel is not an Alliance character though. No more than AU Grom is Horde. If she were to return in her villainous state (and Blizz were to actually commit to it, rather than justifying her cultural genocide … which I’m still not convinced they wont) … the Alliance would oppose her too. Unless she comes as a friend, and gives the Alliance the power they need to act on more the enough reasons to want to wipe out the Horde. Especially while most of the Doves are away.

In a manipulation story, Turalyon is a good choice to take on an aggressive role within the Alliance, because of his absence for so long. Because of his heavy devotion to the Light. Because he surrounds himself by a Dread Lord and was put in his current position by the always questionable House of Nobles. Because if there were any leader on the Alliance who still had dreams of reclaiming the territories of Lordaeron, it would the one that left while that Kingdom was still intact. His home as a child of noble birth is the Kingdom of Lordaeron, that he left to fight for.

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Sure. My only complaint would be that it’s placing alot of focus on another Human character. I think it would be easy enough to make Yrel a member of the Alliance.