Is BfA the Horde's lowest point?

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Morghel-daggerspine

And if you had bothered to read my comments higher up, you would know that I don’t want the Horde to suffer the same fate as the legion/scourge/naga.

Well, they did … because none of those groups were destroyed. Regardless, the issue then always comes down to what sort of restitutions do the Alliance players expect; that also wont sterilize the Horde faction for future stories. Truly, what is the price here? Our characters? What characters do we even have left at this point? Our territories? What territories, a handful of deserts so destitute the people there are subject to repeated famines? Our cities? I mean … sure? I guess? Go ahead?

The Horde Faction is so fundamentally broken and battered at this point that there is nothing else we can give up that we haven’t already; beyond simply becoming an accessory faction to the Alliance. Blizz may have left us functionally in the game, but with their horrific track record the last decade of fixing what they broke with us … they might have well just told us we’ll never be heroes or relevant again. Because they “love writing the Horde so much” they’ll continue never having time to rebuild us until they need another weak, ineffectual villain to break down.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

the issue then always comes down to what sort of restitutions do the Alliance players expect

You know what kind of restitution I expect. And I don’t think that kind of restitution would neuter the Horde in the slightest. I think it would be far worse if they didn’t try to make amends, because then they simply look like a bunch of ostriches.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Morghel-daggerspine

You know what kind of restitution I expect. And I don’t think that kind of restitution would neuter the Horde in the slightest.

OK … and what would those be? Because I don’t know.

The Horde by all indications doesn’t seem to intend to keep any NE territories, and because Blizz never ever validates Horde problems … we will now have 5 communities who get to starve to death in the Kalimdor wastelands and overtaxing Mulgore and Azshara’s resources. The Horde has already promised to try to help with the hunt for Sylvanas and Nate; the Horde is already arresting those who are still loyal to Sylvanas; the Horde is already returning captured enemies like Sira. The story and Horde has made no indications of reclaiming Northern EK … the once Forsaken territories (outside of “maybe” Calia being shoehorned in as their leader). The Horde has gone through radical leadership changes as a result of BfA.

So … what more do you want?

[Micâh-moon-guard]

@Morghel-daggerspine

You know what kind of restitution I expect. And I don’t think that kind of restitution would neuter the Horde in the slightest. I think it would be far worse if they didn’t try to make amends, because then they simply look like a bunch of ostriches.

I mean, it doesn’t help that horde comes off as nothing more than a hive mind, with the majority of it’s members seemingly incapable of thinking for themselves. At least not until AFTER they commit genocide number 4,345.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

I shall link myself.

@Morghel-daggerspine

Not at all. I simply want the Horde to try and help instead of harm for once. Have Horde druids and shamans help fix darkshore. Have the Horde acknowledge that what they did was wrong, and that they are truly sorry. Have the Horde leave zones like ashenvale voluntarily, and give the Night elves a wide berth. Have the Horde help the Night elves rebuild. Those are a few things that they could do, but there may be more things that they can do without hurting the Horde itself.

[Reithiel-wyrmrest-accord]

@Micâh-moon-guard

I mean, it doesn’t help that horde comes off as nothing more than a hive mind, with the majority of it’s members seemingly incapable of thinking for themselves. At least not until AFTER they commit genocide number 4,345.

That’s true but to be fair every race is a hivemind decided by the whims of their racial leader, it’s not only a Horde thing.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

@Reithiel-wyrmrest-accord

That’s true but to be fair every race is a hivemind decided by the whims of their racial leader, it’s not only a Horde thing.

That’s true. I just saying it doesn’t really help the hordes image when it’s leaders basically say We’re Sorry for yet another failed genocide.

[Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord (Galenorn)]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

The story and Horde has made no indications of reclaiming Northern EK … the once Forsaken territories (outside of “maybe” Calia being shoehorned in as their leader).

Aren’t Calia and Voss late to the Horde council meeting from being busy finding ways to resettle Lordaeron, in Shadows Rising?

[Borcan-gurubashi]

@Micâh-moon-guard

Story wise, it makes zero sense that the horde is allowed to function on it’s own, without having the alliance lording over them, to keep them in check.

“I can’t. Not alone” Story wise it’s not even an option.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

Do you truly believe that the NEs want any of that? Getting back Ashenvale is one thing (which I expect they get back), but do you think they really want the Horde in their territories enough to help “rebuild”? I get that the Tauren are perceived as nothing more than an accessory race to the Alliance at this point (with Hamuul being Malf’s pet, and Baine being Anduin’s), but truly?

And yeah, giving the NEs a wide birth would be ideal … but you know what would help with that? Truly? Allowing the Horde some actual breathing space on Kalimdor beyond 2 zones that could not possibly support all their populations, and a bunch of arid deserts and wastelands even the NEs could not fix (which is why they don’t want them). But since Blizz doesn’t validate things like “regular famines” as a point for conflict, these needs don’t count.

Territories like Stonetalon, Desolace, Feralas & Dustallow Marsh would be absurdly helpful in alleviating continental tension … but that can never happen. Only Thousand Needles (arid plateus over an inland sea), Tanaris (an arid desert), and Ungoro (a tropical rainforest surrounded by high cliffs) are “allowed”. Or Northrend, a plague-infested barren tundra on the other side of the world (oh, but don’t touch Grizzly Hills, that’s Furbolg land).

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Allowing the Horde some actual breathing space on Kalimdor beyond 2 zones that could not possibly support all their populations

That may have been true before, but now they have acess to Highmountain, Suramar and the entirety of Zandalar. I highly doubt these locations won’t be able to provide enough food for the Horde.

Also, you don’t get to ask someone for resources after you tried to exterminate them. The Night elves are owed, not the other way around.

I do believe the Night elves would tolerate Horde pressence in their zones as long as they do exactly what they should be doing, which is help rebuild. And I even more doubt the players would be against it.

[Borcan-gurubashi]

Voss clearly states that she plans to reclaim Lordaeron.

“It’s too hot. We prefer the shadows and the damp. Perhaps in time the ruins of Lordaeron can be reclaimed and our home there restored. Things are a little less heated with the armistice, but that doesn’t mean Alliance ships are happy to see our flags at sea.”

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Morghel-daggerspine

I highly doubt these locations won’t be able to provide enough food for the Horde.

So you’re solution is “The Kalimdor Horde needs to rely on (and place he burden on) their overseas allies to support the most basic needs of Fresh Water, Food, and Lumber?” Wow … that’s unbelievably impractical and kind of cruel; and falls far heavier on the Tauren, who’s culture it would cause conflict with. Since both Surumar and Zandalar are in dire straights themselves and were near the breaking points before they were rescued.

Sigh … its just a constant reminder that there is no room for the races of the Horde in this world beyond what areas the Alliance allows them. The Horde cannot be allowed an opportunity to “thrive” or “prosper”, and pure survival is enough for them. The Horde and its peoples are only allowed to exist as long as its convenient for the Alliance. Like with Northern EK for example, with the Argents healing those lands explicitly for living Human resettlement. If Humans weren’t just pure and good by nature, how long you think it take before they “manifest destinied” the Forsaken right out of those lands? Faster than you would think I’d wager.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

So you’re solution is “The Kalimdor Horde needs to rely on (and place he burden on) their overseas allies to support the most basic needs of Fresh Water, Food, and Lumber?” Wow … that’s unbelievably impractical and kind of cruel; and falls far heavier on the Tauren, who’s culture it would cause conflict with. Since both Surumar and Zandalar are in dire straights themselves and were near the breaking points before they were rescued.

The blame for the horde living in arid deserts, lays soley on Thralls shoulders and no one else. It’s not the night elves fault, nor is it their problem that the horde settled in a arid desert. And they shouldn’t have to be forced to give the horde resources. They don’t owe the orcs or the horde anything.

Can only poke the dragon(In this case the alliance) so many times before they up and had enough and decide once and for all the horde truely can’t be trusted to reign in their bloodlust.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

The Horde cannot be allowed an opportunity to “thrive” or “prosper”, and pure survival is enough for them.

It’s very hard to feel bad for the Forsaken after what they have done. Southshore, sludge fields, Gilneas, the list goes on. And the Horde is no better. They don’t ask, simply take whatever they want, and kill whoever stands in their way.

I will feel a shred of pity for the Forsaken when they prove that they aren’t at best zealots that will follow every order by whoever they call leader, and at worst monsters looking for an excuse to inflict pain and suffering.

And yes, the Horde will have to rely on intercontintal trade to thrive. That is their penance. I will repeat this until you understand. The Horde is owed nothing, but it owes to the Alliance.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Micâh-moon-guard

The blame for the horde living in arid deserts, lays soley on Thralls shoulders and no one else.

Where else was he supposed to settle?

Had he tried settling further North he would have pissed off the NEs and they would have attacked then just like they did with Grom; and if they fought back and killed the NE attackers in the process it would have triggered Cenarius and he would have gone nuts. Its honestly an unhappy, and happy stroke of strange luck that they chose Durotar.

EK of course was off limits. Northrend was a frigid hellscape that was wiped out by Arthas. Pandaria wasn’t known about. That leaves … the Broken Isles? Maybe? Pretty sure Daelin would have easily caught up and wiped them out if they had attempted to settle there … assuming they didn’t also step on the toes of the NEs living there as well (and get wiped out by them first).

[Micâh-moon-guard]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Where else was he supposed to settle?

Point I was making is, you’re making it to seem like the Night Elves owe the orcs anything, just because the orcs are living in a arid desert. The NE didn’t force them to live there, nor did they force the orcs to drink mannoraths blood that also forced the orcs to leave draenor to begin with.

The orcs have no one to blame but themselves. If they could only control their bloodlust for more than a few months, they probably wouldn’t be in the position they’re in.

[Chronorabbit-azshara]

@Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord

ways to resettle Lordaeron, in Shadows Rising?

Well, what is Lordaeron is the main question. It’s big. And in the events of the book they had no way to know about Shadowlands and possibility of “fixing” the Plaguelands. So, while it’s content should be canon, it does not change the fact that a lot will change, and the ruins of the Capital City might not be the only option anymore, like it was assumed earlier.

It’s also possible, that the way Calia and Lilian view each other might change too.

@Borcan-gurubashi

Story wise it’s not even an option.

Story-wise there are many options left outside, from lightbound to Bolvar & co., knowing that Sylvanas will need to be dealt with anyway, in order to portray the story the way you quoted. Does not make it logical for the players, just shows what the devs pick convenient things to unfold the story.

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Do you truly believe that the NEs want any of that?

That would be good enough start. The one that would stop night elves from going more radical. Of course, if the goal is to push them to be more radical, it could be a good idea to try to place all the blame on Sylvanas off of the other leader standing at the defence of Undercity.

But who am I kidding, arguing the story seems rather pointless with the way devs pick characters and events for the story to progress.

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Dustallow Marsh

Why not? Jaina is pro-peace, why would she not be happy with it?

Also, it might be possible for druids and other to fix Barrens.

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Ungoro

Logistics was a problem, but I’ve heard nightborne has some members rather proficient with portals, so why not?

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Northrend, a plague-infested barren tundra

There are some places there to be considered. Maybe negotiate something around Sholazar. Also, it was plague infested, but Shadowlands could bring the knowledge about fixing it. And Plaguelands. And maybe Ghostlands?

@Droité-black-dragonflight

what would those be?

Well, even though you did not ask me, but I would consider liberating Calia Menethil from the horde to be good enough.

---

gl hf

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Micâh-moon-guard

nor did they force the orcs to drink mannoraths blood that also forced the orcs to leave draenor to begin with.

No Kil Jaedin did that. Truly, the ultimate tragedy of the Orcs is that the only way they could have proven they weren’t an evil race was to have the strength to do what the Draenei did not (nor were expected to, since they’re a “Good” race, and their survival is needed). In the face of an indescribable power they could not comprehend, fight and die along with their planet. A mere statistic in the Eradar’s civil war, along with all the other races of Draenor. By extension, the Darkspear Trolls should have fallen victim to the Naga, and the Mulgore Tauren should have gone extinct to the Centaur … since they were saved by a race that shouldn’t exist.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Chronorabbit-azshara

I would consider liberating Calia Menethil from the horde to be good enough.

Do you think we want her? Like, Chrono, you do get she’s being primed as a Forsaken leader because she’s super in Blizz’s comfort zone and they don’t like building up Horde characters. Its easier for them to develop an Alliance character and plug them into a Horde leadership position, rather than just writing up a Horde leader. Like, Legion for example wasn’t the Horde stealing Alliance characters and forcing them to be neutral; it was Blizzard being too lazy to write an inclusive story for the Horde, so they “nuetral’d” a bunch of Alliance characters so an entire player faction could tag along for what really was an Alliance ride.