Is anybody else struggling with the War Crime simulator that is Horde Side Assaults right now?

[Zeerionjax-argent-dawn (Zeerionjax)]

But that was my point, cupcake, people are likening WoW to modern war when it’s not. For the time period, what Sylvanas is doing would have been more or less acceptable. Naturally there would be many that would denounce her actions, then when they attacked someone, they’d do the same thing.

Furthermore, had you read my original post, you would have seen that I excepted magic, as it does not exist, and clearly we all know that there were no airships, or flying machines of any kind for that matter, until centuries after medieval times. Which is roughly the time period WoW would be set in.

However, there are even more recent examples of the same kind of savagery that Sylvanas practices, Vlad Tepes ring a bell? Or maybe something you might be more familiar with like say, the Trail of Tears. Or you might look up how many native American tribes were wiped out completely by the Europeans.

Now take a step back, breathe deep, and look at the situation from an historian’s point of view, or in my case, a war historian’s point of view. And yes, I frown of the SJWs wannabes here on the forums. You want to effect change, get off the computer and go get it done, cupcake. Actions speak louder than any words ever will, and the real SJWs have my respect and admiration for standing up for what they believe in, even if what they believe in is something I think is foolish.

And as for me being a Marine, I am, and I am damn proud of it. Retired 8541, can you say Ooorah!

P.S. Have a nice day.

Semper Fi!

[Seradi-norgannon (Seradi)]

It is almost like Blizzard caught a lot of flak for the Alliance Purge Squads and everything else stupid got overlooked.

One of the things that blizzard gave the horde was choice, choice to choose Saurfangs side, Sylvanas’ side, or nothing.

Yet you’re going to kill that Mistweaver monk because it is one of the 4 or 5 quests needed to get a reward.

Stories done. Nothing will save it and nothing will save your hope.

Well, you have a choice. You do not need to do that WQ because you only need 4. Personally, I’ll never turn down an easy “go kill one person” WQ.

[Morley-zangarmarsh]

I’m having difficulty with this whole expansion to be honest, it’s awful. I hate playing my horde characters now and I was horde from day one up until the burning of Teldrassil. Once that cinematic came out I was done with the horde and stopped being a Sylvanas fanboy, they could have done something interesting with her but chose the obvious.

I’m only playing one of my horde characters right now to unlock the mag’har and eventually the zandarlari just to have all races playable. It’s really not easy to do though, can only manage a couple of hours before I want to log off.

[Starlagosa-dentarg (Starlagosa)]

Nope, I’m done caring about the story. When I cared I felt as a Horde player my loyalties were being jerked around. Not going to let that happen to me anymore.

[Tiresias-moon-guard (Tiresias)]

If I remember, it was Alliance only. SI:7 sends agent to determine if he’s Forsaken, they don’t return so Bolvar sends you up to take him out. Apparently, he didn’t take that well.

Thanks, this is a problem with questing on both sides. The quest blur together after awhile.

But that was my point, cupcake, people are likening WoW to modern war when it’s not. For the time period, what Sylvanas is doing would have been more or less acceptable. Naturally there would be many that would denounce her actions, then when they attacked someone, they’d do the same thing.

I don’t think people are likening WoW to modern war. We already have the concept of war crimes in WoW thanks to Garrosh. People are just applying those concepts to what is going on now. Whay Sylvanas is doing is not acceptable in WoW and if she loses they will put her on trial for her crimes.

As for Vlad Tepes if my understanding is correct his actions were more about deterring is enemies. Putting their heads on pikes was an intimidation tactic to minimize actual fighting, where as what the Horde is just plain savagery. It is just them going wild, not a thought out war tactic. The Trail of Tears is just the tip and was more about relocation. Then there were the breed out programs, small pox, and settlers that moved into their new lands. Then there is the whole scalping issue but all of this is off topic so I will end it here.

[Kheradin-aerie-peak (Kheradin)]

Which is roughly the time period WoW would be set in.

Except that our historical experience is not the Azerothian historical experience. WoW is a high-fantasy fictional world with its own existing morals and societal code. One that also has highly functioning technology as well as magic. Part of that societal code in the story is this sense of honor and honorable conduct in warfare. Otherwise, the whole Saurfang storyline would not exist. It’s not a question of what we as players find acceptable by our modern standards. Sylvanas’ actions exist outside the norm which is why there is tension in the story, she is acting outside of what both the Alliance and the Horde find generally acceptable. The Horde wasn’t founded upon this conduct, it was founded on the antithesis of this conduct.

[Salathiel-wyrmrest-accord]

But that was my point, cupcake, people are likening WoW to modern war when it’s not. For the time period, what Sylvanas is doing would have been more or less acceptable. Naturally there would be many that would denounce her actions, then when they attacked someone, they’d do the same thing.

Furthermore, had you read my original post, you would have seen that I excepted magic, as it does not exist, and clearly we all know that there were no airships, or flying machines of any kind for that matter, until centuries after medieval times. Which is roughly the time period WoW would be set in.

However, there are even more recent examples of the same kind of savagery that Sylvanas practices, Vlad Tepes ring a bell? Or maybe something you might be more familiar with like say, the Trail of Tears. Or you might look up how many native American tribes were wiped out completely by the Europeans.

Now take a step back, breathe deep, and look at the situation from an historian’s point of view, or in my case, a war historian’s point of view. And yes, I frown of the SJWs wannabes here on the forums. You want to effect change, get off the computer and go get it done, cupcake. Actions speak louder than any words ever will, and the real SJWs have my respect and admiration for standing up for what they believe in, even if what they believe in is something I think is foolish.

And as for me being a Marine, I am, and I am damn proud of it. Retired 8541, can you say Ooorah!

P.S. Have a nice day.

Semper Fi!

Alright little boy. First of all total war actually became more prevalent recently, until we moved away from it post WWII.

But it wasn’t actually practiced in medieval times. Medieval battles were structured and like I said, nobles were often ransomed.

So the situation that would be similar would be the mongol invasion of Europe where the mongols engaged in total war. But the mongols used terror attacks to get other forces to capitulate. You don’t get that with the Horde. There is no reason for the Alliance not to fight until the last man against them.

But then we come back to my point, which is that the organization of Paladins and even Sin’dorei healers in the Horde isn’t the same as Mongols. The Horde is an alliance of forces rather than one singular force and so a mismatch of ideology can splinter that force.

Roman soldiers may have sacked cities but by medieval times sacking a city, like the sacking of Jerusalem in the first crusade, was considered extremely brutal.

So by historical standards, Orcs, Trolls and Tauren who are tribal societies may not see a distinction between civilians and warriors. But the Forsaken, Sin’dorei and Shal’dorei are all suitably advanced cultures to have developed an aversion to causing civilian casualties.

Also, your oath as a marine had you defending the constitution which includes the freedom of speech. Your knee jerk vilification and insertion of SJW’s where it’s inappropriate and unwarranted is pretty unbecoming of that oath. Considering how diverse the Marines are the way you mention your branch and your contempt in the same post is pretty disgusting.

[Lightwood-nagrand (Lightwood)]

Storylines like is these are the reason my Horde faction pride is completely dead since the start of this expansion. None of my Horde t-shirts will be seeing the light of day until i feel some sort of connection to my faction again.

[Salathiel-wyrmrest-accord]

Which is roughly the time period WoW would be set in.

Except that our historical experience is not the Azerothian historical experience. WoW is a high-fantasy fictional world with its own existing morals and societal code. One that also has highly functioning technology as well as magic. Part of that societal code in the story is this sense of honor and honorable conduct in warfare. Otherwise, the whole Saurfang storyline would not exist. It’s not a question of what we as players find acceptable by our modern standards. Sylvanas’ actions exist outside the norm which is why there is tension in the story, she is acting outside of what both the Alliance and the Horde find generally acceptable. The Horde wasn’t founded upon this conduct, it was founded on the antithesis of this conduct.

Not to mention that the authors of WoW have no intention of the setting being historically accurate so an argument about what is socially acceptable in a separate time period has nothing to do with a setting written for a modern audience and that includes things like selfie sticks.

WoW has written it’s own moral codes and convictions so the codes and convictions of a different time period are pointless. Like Kheradin says, characters like Saurfang tell us exactly how they feel about things.

Since characters in WoW have always let their views be known, for instance Kael’thas’s views on the Alliance actions towards his people, those thoughts are what is relevant. Not George R.R. Martin’s.

[Tragik-khadgar (Tragik)]

I can suspend disbelief to a point. But yeah the Alliance has an orbital invincible space ship with lasers we haven’t used yet. So the horde is cute. We don’t need soldiers or your war. We just need to start the orbital bombardment and I can’t get into the invasions for more than an alt xp buff until we do.

The reason the horde exists is a fake moral highground. Essentially the entirety of the horde is ALLOWED to exist as long as the Vindicaar exists.

The writing is really bad right now.

In reality ya’ll should be hiding in caves or on Outland or Draenor.

[Tyriellais-thunderhorn (Tyriellais)]

It is almost like Blizzard caught a lot of flak for the Alliance Purge Squads and everything else stupid got overlooked.

I think a large part of that is because of the name. IIRC, the Purge Squad thing was caught by datamining before it even came to the PTR. It grabbed immediate attention. By the time the PTR came around, the rest of it was lost in the haze of all the info. This sort of thing you don’t really pick up on in the same way.

[Medaax-area-52 (Medaax)]

Youre acting like turalyon is a good written character as well. Turalyon is what you get if you go to google images and type in “blind faith”. Will literally do anything for the Light even when it is definitely not in the best interests of all parties involved. Based of what happened with Illidan I wouldn’t be surprised if Turalyon got along with “Actually Hitler” Yrel and her lightforged.

[Zanithan-farstriders (Zanithan)]

Yeah. There are plenty of players that want to play mass-effect renegade all the time and so it’s fine that this content is there for them. But don’t give me the option to play a noble Paladin and then only throw me quests that make you lose your Paladin status if you complete them.

Mass Effect renegade style was still a man/woman who was doing what he/she had to do to save the universe. Yes, you do some shady things as Renegade Shepherd, but even then he/she has a certain code, and a reason for doing what he/she is doing.

I don’t think anyone can really say that Sylvanas is doing this for any kind of justifiable reason. She certainly isn’t saving anyone in this war that she started.

[Salathiel-wyrmrest-accord]

Yeah. There are plenty of players that want to play mass-effect renegade all the time and so it’s fine that this content is there for them. But don’t give me the option to play a noble Paladin and then only throw me quests that make you lose your Paladin status if you complete them.

Mass Effect renegade style was still a man/woman who was doing what he/she had to do to save the universe. Yes, you do some shady things as Renegade Shepherd, but even then he/she has a certain code, and a reason for doing what he/she is doing.

I don’t think anyone can really say that Sylvanas is doing this for any kind of justifiable reason. She certainly isn’t saving anyone in this war that she started.

Fair statement.

[Tyriellais-thunderhorn (Tyriellais)]

Yeah. There are plenty of players that want to play mass-effect renegade all the time and so it’s fine that this content is there for them. But don’t give me the option to play a noble Paladin and then only throw me quests that make you lose your Paladin status if you complete them.

Mass Effect renegade style was still a man/woman who was doing what he/she had to do to save the universe. Yes, you do some shady things as Renegade Shepherd, but even then he/she has a certain code, and a reason for doing what he/she is doing.

I don’t think anyone can really say that Sylvanas is doing this for any kind of justifiable reason. She certainly isn’t saving anyone in this war that she started.

Not really?

Renegade Shepard has a reason for each individual action, sure. But if you take them as a whole, the character is schizophrenic and basically chaotic evil. Pure Renegade is self-contradictory in multiple scenarios, and doesn’t really have a unified theme beyond “be a jerk to whomever I’m talking to”.

[Zanithan-farstriders (Zanithan)]

Yeah. There are plenty of players that want to play mass-effect renegade all the time and so it’s fine that this content is there for them. But don’t give me the option to play a noble Paladin and then only throw me quests that make you lose your Paladin status if you complete them.

Mass Effect renegade style was still a man/woman who was doing what he/she had to do to save the universe. Yes, you do some shady things as Renegade Shepherd, but even then he/she has a certain code, and a reason for doing what he/she is doing.

I don’t think anyone can really say that Sylvanas is doing this for any kind of justifiable reason. She certainly isn’t saving anyone in this war that she started.

Not really?

Renegade Shepard has a reason for each individual action, sure. But if you take them as a whole, the character is schizophrenic and basically chaotic evil. Pure Renegade is self-contradictory in multiple scenarios, and doesn’t really have a unified theme beyond “be a jerk to whomever I’m talking to”.

Okay maybe not everything Renegade Shepherd does was for the greater good. Like decking the reporter lady. Also yes, looking back it could be self-contradictory at times. Video game writing is seldom perfect.

Still though, my point remains, renegade Shepherd was still working towards the greater good of saving the universe. A true anti-hero.

[Sabbia-moonrunner (Sabbia)]

I just have one question: Alliance has two spaceships so why the heck are we not just bombarding the Horde from space? Oh yeah, another little detail that the writers conveniently forgot. Some of yall are looking way too deep into this because basically everything can be summed up into one thing: bad writing.

[Kittredge-azjolnerub (Kittredge)]

I’d be happy with being the evil faction (I’m a forsaken Warlock it makes sense), as long as the writing is good enough to justify that sort of shift… it doesn’t.

Giving us the MoP/WoD story all over again is kind of an insult.

[Malvalen-moon-guard]

We do have the right to free speech, but often we forget there are consequences to be endured when we exercise it in an open forum or venue.

Funny, you didn’t keep this in mind when someone criticized you earlier for being needlessly disparaging toward others:

I’ve shed blood on a few different continents to keep that oath and a good deal of that blood was my own. Unless you’ve taken it, and even if you have, you’ve no place lecturing me on it.

Or does having been a marine shield you from criticism?

[Grezgara-suramar (Grezgara)]

Maybe it is too late but I’m willing to give the quest writers and Sourfang this last chance. Whatever is done will need to give the less murder happy players a chance to somehow redeem themselves and large bodies of the Horde, as well as some sort of proof that this won’t happen again. I really don’t want to get a new Horde identity just to have it taken away again for sport, it got old fast with Garrosh.