From taepsilum, cm, on the EU forums. Obviously more context to it, but the detailed conversation doesn’t contradict what I said.
Compare to a gut feeling.
I don’t think he would estimate the number and be off by a factor of 25. There’s no way that only 1% of level 60’s raided during Vanilla. Maybe the context is 1% were raiding while the content was new and current.
The post was from 2013.
Could depend on what blizzard considers raiders and players consider raiders.
And the post was in reference to access to content, so he/she could be referring to the entire WoW population, and not just 60’s.
Yes, obviously. However, while some classes did really high dps, other did not. For that fight, healers are the major backbone of it though.
Here is a good example of what kind of damage people pull on the real official vanilla version of the fight(of course it varied from guild to guild):
The fight, in the video, was ~8 min long, or ~480 seconds. Notice the damage, now divide that by 480. You’ll see that the top dps was only pulling ~500dps for the whole fight. The middle of the pack was around 350-400 depending on what kind of statistical average you want to take. The room for error was not as large as you think. It’s a straight up dps race. On paper, you need a raid dps of around 9500. So if you just divide that out among 25 dps (ignoring tank dps), that’s 380 dps per dps, which coincides roughly with the results in the video…
EDIT: Keep in mind, that was obviously a progression version of the fight. Once the raid gets a bunch of T3, the fight goes a lot quicker and isn’t so tight, but that’s the point of eventually being able to get it on farm.
EDIT EDIT: Oh and also, you might bring up world buffs, which yeah, they help a lot. But remember that if you die, they go away. Realistically, you’re only going to get 1 shot with them if you’re racing for world firsts. Patchwerk would be a fight to use them on. But even then, if the raid isn’t uber geared yet, you’ll just run into problems on other fights or in worst case, wipe on patchwerk due to bad timing with his threat table or something.
And? You still have the choice. That’s not going to change just because people stop talking about BiS.
If NO ONE talked about BiS, some items would still be BiS, and those with it would outperform those without.
I’m not so sure why you’re against people being informed. Maybe you want everyone else to be brought down to your level, or something?
Right, because “fun” is this totally objective thing that everyone experiences the exact same way. It’s not like some people don’t have fun figuring out which item is best and some people do have fun grinding for their BiS.
Oh wait…
Kind of a terrible analogy. Spoilers in a movie are generally frowned upon because they ruin what is meant to be a surprising, unexpected moment in the story.
Your gear is not a story. Your BiS is not unexpected. It’s not some grand revelation that blows your mind when you figure out “wow, the sword with the highest DPS is the best sword.”
In your analogy, saying what items are best would be more akin to saying “Simba is a lion.” It’s pretty obvious and doesn’t really ruin anything.
It is, because all of the stats have a set value.
Each amount of Strength gives a set amount of attack power.
Each attack power gives you a set amount of weapon DPS.
Each point of agility gives you a set amount of critical strike chance.
Each point of critical strike chance increases your overall damage by (on average) the same percent.
Every stat has a quantifiable value to your DPS that can easily be calculated and compared.
The only actually difficult part of gear is determining the value of hit past the soft cap and weapon skill. Those can be done with a spreadsheet fairly easily, though. Not everyone wants to be figuring that stuff out, though. That’s why they have people like me who figure out their BiS for them.
When did I say I didn’t believe you? I was just repeating what you said.
Nah, I don’t hate meme specs; I’m just very vocal about how bad they are and that people should be aware of what they’re getting into.
I don’t like to lie and delude people into thinking if they play Balance or Retribution that they’ll be getting invited to raids easily.
Not at all. I’ve never once discouraged discussion. In fact, it’s actually you folks that constantly discourage discussion. I’m more than happy to talk about these things. You people are just upset that I don’t agree with you.
For example, in this thread up to this point, we’ve already got two people doing it:
Also, fun is subjective.
Indeed, which is what I’ve always said, with the stipulation that they will progress more slowly because the specs they’re bringing aren’t as good, and any player willing to play those specs probably isn’t very good to begin with.
Most people, however, are going to laugh at those specs when they look for groups, because the spec itself is laughably bad.
That’s all good and fine, but people looking to do that are a rarity compared to people who say “just play whatever you want. Ignore the elitists!”
Even min/maxing a meme spec is going to result in a ceiling lower than the floor of a good spec.
Sure, but you can’t really prove people wrong in that regard. The min/maxers and theorycrafters are the ones that proved those specs were bad, no matter how much your min/maxed them.
It’s a bit like using math to prove a mathematicians wrong when they tell you 2 + 2 = 4.
Indeed. If BiS were a requirement, no one would EVER raid. How could you possibly ever get BiS if the content you were doing required it in the first place.
I believe they meant pre-raid BiS, and even that’s not a “requirement,” so much as something people strongly suggest on having before entering raids to minimize the struggle within the raid itself.
Thanks for making these replies for me.
Having the “appropriate gear” is in and of itself min/maxing.
Except the part where you told them not to play it how they want to play:
… then told them to play it the way you want them to:
Nope. We know there are other ways to play; we just also know those ways aren’t as good.
The only feel that way because it’s true.
If you can min/max to get 1000 DPS, or not min/max and do 200 DPS, which do you think most people would do?
Not really, because Enhancement shamans were mainly a thing in PvP solely because of the insta-kills every now and then making it a fun spec to play despite it overall being pretty bad.
But Arms is better in PvP. They definitely would’ve been a thing with min/maxing. Min/maxing doesn’t only apply to PvE.
Actually, reckoning bombs are the result of min/maxing.
You’re minimizing your capabilities in one area (healing, generally) to maximize your potential in another area (instantly killing people/bosses).
I think that depends on what content the person plans to do. I’d highly recommend everyone do research on how to play if they’ve never played before. It will save them a lot of time and pain struggling.
That’s… literally min/maxing. lol
Obviously. BiS comes from the raid itself.
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how is that going for you theorycrafting on a 15 year old solved game?
I’m a min/maxer and I’m tired of it… everyone talks about how awesome x class is and how easy y content is using BiS numbers as their basis… You likely won’t have BiS when you tackle the content. You are unlikely to even have pre-BWL BiS when you go into BWL… The only BiS or near BiS state you can reliably have when stepping into the next content is Pre-MC. Everything else is at the behest of RNGesus.
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Which means theoretically you could have BiS in your first week. /shrug
BiS means best in slot, not “what everyone will have.” It’s the best because it’s the best, not because you expect to have it.
That is exactly what I have been saying… The problem is everyone uses the BiS numbers when talking about content difficulty and class ability and that is just simply not a practical way to look at things. Essentially they are saying “in the statistically unlikely event of having an optimal situation x is the result”.
When you talk about shooter weapons TTK you don’t assume 100% headshot accuracy because in play that will happen but it’s the exception not the rule. So why do we talk about content difficulty using BiS numbers?
Yep, and that absurdity is rarely ever put on display. Cheers!
Added much later. Cata I think.
Since we are talking about the hoj. Does anyone know for sure if it procs in feral forms.
I had a druid at the end of vanilla which I didn’t really do anything with tell wolk.
I am wanting to try my hand this go around as a bear/cat and I am not wanting to be that guy that takes it for just the attack power. Which is still good but if it don’t proc. I can find something else.
It’s ancient history. There is no theory-crafting because it was done to death 15 years ago. You want your Ironfoe answers, take em or leave em from a shaman’s perspective who got one in 2004 on Blackrock:
Ironfoe will not be used by time MC/Onyx on farm. Ele sham the SP damage on alternatives became too appealing - and for PvP Hoeto/SP (post the stack-proc nerfs - which the Classic 1.12 version is at) became sexier if you could get it for the insta-heal/CL and insta flag-capping (also fixed by 1.12 zz). Enh sham wants 2h obv. Tank wars got that pimp QS quest sword from DM iirc? Rogues the damage fell behind fast especially with the standardised proc and most rogues couldn’t or wouldn’t pull off mace spec. Paladins eh? Dunno, but in vanilla they would have been laughed at either way.
Plus the 1.12 version of Ironfoe is not the same as the pre-nerf ‘infamous’ Ironfoe everyone wanted in vanilla, which had 3 attacks and chain-procced with WF, HoJ and itself, no matter what people claim now. I believe it ended up being considered a bug and was gone by the time I came back to check out AQ.
So if you’re drooling over that pipe-dream of 1-shotting everyone and being OP with Ironfoe, that was glory-days 1.1-1.7ish. It’s well and truly fixed/gone (whatever term you think applies) with this 1.12 Classic and it was slammed with a boring standardised proc-rate which keeps it in line with everything else MC/BWL-level. It was more powerful and the gear progression was A LOT slower than we’ll see in Classic so it mattered more for longer. It had a window of 6 months being OP in Vanilla opposed to maybe 7 weeks it will get in Classic. There’s a reason no-one farmed for it except collectors by the time the drop rates were buffed.
As rogue or shaman, if you’re super-lucky and get it in week 1 or 2 you will get a 4-5 weeks window of it making a medium difference in small-scale (2-5 per side) PvP only. I can see it perhaps lasting for a rogue a couple weeks longer. If you’re using it and winning duels you’ll be considered bad (true or otherwise) and only winning due to an item + no-one serious will duel you unless you swap it out. If you’re in 7v7+ it won’t matter unless you’re a horde and want to talk smack to alliance dwarves for s**** and giggles. Other classes it won’t make a big difference at all. By 4-8 weeks of MC it’ll be a below-average item. By BWL it’ll be a garbage item minus whatever it gives you ego-wise.
Btw the unrealistic 1 in a 1000 luck items were ignored by even the most pedantic BiS min/maxers.
If the green text begins with ‘Equip’ it will work in feral forms. If the green text begins with ‘Chance on hit’ it won’t work in feral forms. So HOJ works in feral forms and Ironfoe does not.
Thanks. I was aware of the proc weapons not working. Like felstriker. What I was not sure was hoj. Since I know some private servers allow firey enchant, crusader, + weapon damage also.
And not once have the posters in those threads tried to impose themselves on others. In fact, it’s physically impossible to force yourself into a group when others don’t want you in WoW. So why does it need to keep getting brought up over and over again without the slightest provocation? Because people want to impose themselves on others apparently.
People heavily sought the iron foe without knowing its proc rate or if its BiS, it is kinda people exploring the game themselves that made such items sought after.
Ravanger, Iron foe, crit dagger are items people will look for.
Depends on what they are going for, in pvp maybe they won’t be using it when they have it and maybe in pve they get tired of relying on procs and want to swap to a different item. I personally don’t think it will once other raids open up, and may be used by people as BiS if they have it in early raids.
This thread is the funniest thing I’ve read in awhile. Thanks
I think all the bis talk is from peoples xp in lrivate servers where everyone has pick of gear and retail where its much easier to gear. Vanilla was pretty difficult to have full sets when the raid was relevant. As in aq might have been out and people were still working on their tier 2 set. Especially if you were a rogue or mage where there were 5+ brought to a raid
Congrats, you’ve managed to destroy your stun DR.
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