We’ve moved from Lucas to Filoni and Filoni fills in those gaps that explain why Luke’s faith in his father saves the day in Episode 6 and puts the lie to that statement.
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Fair enough.
I was was merely referencing what they stated it meant from ones transition from dark-side to light-side, but they retcon & switch out writers / directors so much it gets to be a bit of a rollercoaster. lol
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The thread is actually about Sylvannas, the subject was brought up to show the simmilarities in discussion. The thread is about how differently male and female characters are judged by fandoms even when they are simmilar in structure.
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Arthas was a hero who slowly slipped into evil and became everything he would have once fought against. In the end he deserved death, and got it.
Sylvanas was also a hero who slowly slipped into evil and became everything she would have once fought against (even more so than Arthas, because ARTHAS himself WAS the evil she’d fought against). Many said that she deserved death, but she was spared.
The difference between them is less about whether their reproductive organs were designed for carrying ovum or for fertilizing ovum, and more
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that Arthas committed several acts of evil BEFORE he has his soul damaged/removed (and thus his ability to feel emotions and make moral judgements was compromised), and all of Sylvanas’ evil was committed AFTER she’d had her soul damaged/removed (and thus her ability to feel emotions and make moral judgements was compromised).
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That Arthas’ arc was complete within the entirely of WC3, and was always meant to be a villainous character; while Sylvanas’ story continued on into WoW for decades, and she was (until recently) portrayed as an anti-hero/anti-villain (her actions were often ruthless, but practical).
I agree with this assessment.
And for the record, I see Anakin as repenting, and being saved via the Grace of the Force moreso than by just ‘doing good to counteract the evil he did’. IMO, you can’t really intentionally ‘redeem’ yourself anyway- it would be an inherently selfish paradox. Also note am not religious, just trying to see things here from a ‘narrative’ point of view rather than actually espousing any ‘true’ spiritual beliefs.
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There isn’t anything of Arthas left. The last fragment of his soul evaporated in the fight against Anduin. He’s gone folks. He deserved FAR better writing, but this is what we have.
You can’t unburn a house. Once a thing is destroyed, it’s gone.
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Storywise, she deserved death… however, because her fall was the product of a dev using her to hurt another dev she was spared. Gotta love it when dev’s treat their product like a weapon to swing at each other and their customers.
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Depends on the people. I, for one, judge Illidan and Sylvanas by the same metric. Arthas too, though Blizzard didn’t flip-flop on him as much.
Going by how the Sequel Trilogy worked, that’s another Star Wars parallel!
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What?!
Fans are claiming that Ahsoka needs to redeem herself from abandoning the path of the jedi?
As far as I am aware, fans were supporting her detour from the jedi.
Are you sure it is not just the writers of Ahsoka that somehow got weird? I know that Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni have a hand in it, but I am quite certain it is not the ‘fans’ who want Ahsoka to redeem herself from abandoning the path of the jedi.
Granted, I have not seen the series… I have heard that it is quite terrible.
People might also just be misinterpreting what is actually said.
Like people who kept not understanding that just because one hate Rey as a character, does not mean that one hate female characters overall. It just so happens that Rey is a mary sue and a terrible character.
Kinda like what Sylvanas turned out to be.
People probably also misinterpret Anakin’s presence as a force ghost as him having been redeemed. He did switch from dark to light again, but that is about it. I have yet to see anyone mention that he redeemed himself. They may suggest that he has been redeemed in the “eyes” of the force though - but that is also kinda weird.
Is this just another: “BOOHOO, PEOPLE HATE FEMALES IN MEDIA!”?
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Mostly haters of the character.
I’m not one of t hem and I mostly enjoyed the series if not the least for tying up loose ends from Rebels.
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Oh for the love of the elements, this is probably the easiest thing to retcon/recontextualized. Just make it so they were wrong. Have it someday be that the last soul in the Maw is the fragment of Arthas, let Sylvanas get the choice to save them both, or destroy Arthas soul and doom her to an eternity alone in the Maw.
Except even before he commited those acts the Lich King was already subtly manipulating him! Something Sylvanas did not have to deal with. Sylvanas and Arthas are more similar then not and if Arthas had not exist, she could have easily been as easy a target by Ner’zhul to turn into the Lich King. If anything, the entire point of Wrath is we were always just a step away from becoming the same sort of monster Arthas ended up1
Lucas did say Anakin redeemed himself after he killed the Emperor and Disney hasn’t retconned that at all. So not sure where the whole He hasn’t been redeemed is coming from.
As far as the Asoka thing goes, as Drah said, that’s mostly just haters of the character. The series wasn’t perfect, but I and others enjoyed it and the fact that it did tie up a lot of loose ends from Rebels, which was nice.
Disney just has a problem of explaining what Thrawn was up too been the rise of the First Order and the death of the Republic and if he survived and if he did, what’s he up to
I have never seen an official statement from George saying that Anakin was ‘redeemed’ in the fashion that people appearantly consider ‘redemption’ to mean. That would require forgiveness of his actions, of which there where none. Luke also never really ‘forgave’ Darth Vader, Luke just held unconditional compassion and love even for Darth Vader, his father. But it does not excuse or forgive the vile acts Darth Vader committed.
I am not entirely sure on the force as a sentient energy that has its own morality and thoughts. But if it were, I really would like to subscribe to Kreia’s (From The Old Republic) idea of the force as a malevolent energy that does good or evil depending on what fits best in it’s grand design.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg&ab_channel=%D6%B4
I absolutely love this video. Granted, it is headcanon through and through, but it is well thought out headcanon. I suggest good drink and snacks with the video. Kreia is still among the best Star Wars characters ever.
But yeah, the force may have considered Anakin redeemed, due to his force ghost being there. But I can not really pinpoint if the force is sentient or just an energy as it has otherwise been described.
There will always be haters. But why make it sound like that it is the common stance? The normal stance is that Ahsoka is a widely popular character, a huge fan favorite. Largely because she is actually a good, developed characters. She was very unpopular in the beginning, when she was a newbie, know-it-all, snot-nosed brat. But that is the beauty of character developement, and Dave Filoni worked it masterfully.
Disney has a lot of problems. The existence of the sequels is among them. They should just erase them from the canon again.
As someone who loved the sequels, I disagree. Sure, they had their issues, like I still think the whole Canto Bight story could have been cut and they did Rose Tico wrong by not developing her character more. Kyle Ren was awesome, loved him as a villian.
And the Rey issues her people calling her a Mary Sue, kind of forget Luke was bit of one himself. Then again, was never a huge fan of Luke myself so.
Oh boy there is a lot to unpack.
Kylo Ren, the Knights of Ren, wasted opportunities much like Finn. Granted, Kylo was the best thing of the sequels, but the bar is extremely low. Finn could have been such an interesting character with an interesting story, a Stormtrooper turned rebel? Now that is interesting. Instead they were, dare I say it, they were being racist and turned the token black character into comic relief. The lack of a plan with the sequels showed, not just with the shifting directors which totally ruined any cohesion the story could have, but they utterly ruined the entire characterization of Luke, ruined his whole character. The story they wanted to tell was somewhat possible, cut out Darth Sidious returning, stop killing Snoke in the second movie. Their execution was terrible.
As for Rey, Luke and the question of mary sue. Luke is not a mary sue character. Some of his accomplishments are misinterpreted. Luke never “used” the force per se before ‘The Empire Strikes Back’. Atleast not beyond any means that was told to us as possible at the moment which held true throughout the prequels.
Luke first trained with Obi-wan in the millennium falcon, guess what he trained, sensory through the force. He did not pick up objects with the force, he did not move giant boulders, he did not jedi mind trick military trained personnel, and he did not go through a force tug of war with another force user. The force sensory trained later showed itself as viable, at the end of ‘A New Hope’, when Luke, rather than relying on computers, instead relied on the force to ‘sense’ when he had to shoot to hit the hole.
That is a rule established with force sensitives, that would later come to show itself in the prequels. Anakin Skywalker, a human child who was capable of pod-racing, which was unusual for humans because they had drastically worse reflexes than many alien species. But hey, Anakin is force sensitive, and a particularely sensitive one at that. And what was established in ‘A New Hope’? Force sensitives have a form of precognition or heightened reflexes as a result of being sensitive to the force, an energy which encompasses everything in the universe. But I digress.
Three years later after the Death Stars first destruction at the hands of Luke, some more practice with the force is a given during that time. And Luke FINALLY, but only barely, is able to pick up a smaller object using the force - his lightsaber. He has to go do more training in order to learn to use it to pick up heavier objects. And his first altercation with a trained lightsaber-force user, he loses badly.
Now a year after, Obi-wan have shown himself capable of turning up as a force ghost to help guide Luke. Luke finally started showing a lot more proficency with the force. Now he is starting to kick butt and taking names. And even then, by the end, he still only barely wins against Darth Vader. Of course, he never intended to kill Darth Vader in the first place, and once that thought started coming to mind, he overwhelmed Darth Vader in a fit of rage. But that was the end of the journey, so eh, it can be acceptable.
Hell, even Anakin Skywalker, the guy who had the mariest of sues of background established for him, required several years before we saw him proficient with the force. His entire training was cut out, but we know he trained from kid to the adult we see him as in ‘Attack of the Clones’. Not even that dude just started force grappling lightsabers with other trained users.
Which brings us to Rey… she is just the best at everything. Best pilot, smartest, she knows the Millennium Falcon better than Han Solo, she resists Kylo Ren’s force-mind attack, she manages to free herself by suddenly just being able to do a mind trick, she can win a force-tug-of-war against a trained force user, a Skywalker grandchild no less, she wins a swordfight against a trained force user and trained lightsaber duelist. And that is just the first movie.
I have absolutely no idea, why people in their right mind think they can compare Luke and Rey, and call Luke a mary sue. It is ridicolous, really.
But that is also a huge gripe I have with bad storytellers. It is a lack of consistency. George Lucas established a clear rule in regards to the force. Even if you are the MFing chosen one, you DO NOT just start grabbing stuff with the force. You still need training in order to be proficient with it.
That rule was broken with Rey, and only Rey. Because Rey is a mary sue character, and the prequels are bad storytelling due to a lack of plan.
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Hate to say this but, what more is there to say? Expansion’s story is moving at the same glacial pace as all the rest, only this time the villains are faceless goons and a few mad dragons with threadbare excuses to be mad, while most of the cutscenes are just focusing on the not mad dragons talking about their feelings. We have little to go on here.
It’s dull, but it’s not bad at least.
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To be fair I don’t think an expansion called WORLD OF WARCRAFT: SAD DRAGONS (cover image: Alexstrazsa in dragon form, just sitting there, eyes huge and teary, saying “Honestly the last 30 years of my +20,000 year long life have been an absolute ####show.”) would have sold nearly so well.
It helped a lot that he died in the process. if he had survived, he’d would have found himself in the same situation as Sylvannas, a lot of death and sins to be brought to account for. The key part of his redemption is not just killing the Emperor, that alone would simply have been one Sith succeeding another. But that he gave his life doing it to save his son.
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We need more focus like when Alexstraza fought Razageth, or the confrontation between Vyranoth and Fyrakk.
Don’t encourage Blizzard to retcon more. Every time they try to retcon something, it ends up being terrible.
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