In-game chat desperately needs moderation

[Ragnök-bleeding-hollow]

@Gutshredda-zuljin

Right… because there are rules lawyers out there that will find a loop hole in a strictly defined “rule”… anyone that disagrees with this has never played D&D with “that one guy” who hyper analyzes (usually to his own benefit) every rule and exploits the rules.

I don’t see the problem. Though of course I am one of the rules lawyers in DnD. The rules exist clearly stated. If there becomes problems then the table should decide amongst themselves how to change said rule so it is no longer a problem. If a player does not like the change they can ask for a compromise or find a new table.

Without these clearly written rules you have what amounts to arguments like we had as children were we argue over if someone shot someone else in a cops and robbers chase.

@Gutshredda-zuljin

Yup… much like real life policing… one officer may throw the ticket book at you for every little infraction (Barney Fife policing) or they may just make you aware you have a tail light out.

This example fails because there are clear laws. Many many statutes (in fact I would argue at any point it requires a lawyer 7 years to specialize in a very narrow branch of the law) that specify and categorize what is illegal behavior. If a police officer arrests or tickets you, you have the chance to fight it in court. Were judge or jury decide on the case. You then have the right to appeal to a higher court, multiple times. This system works (or is supposed to, see below) because of the number of checks and balances that enforce impartiality.

Now cases do happen were there is clear evidence that the judge is biased and appeals are declined such as the recent Sullivan case. These should not be accepted however and the court of public opinion should and often does change rulings in clear cases of corruption such as the 50 year old lady in the capitol riot case.

If your not familiar with the case you can see a discussion here although Barnes is pretty worked up.

HL-138: Capital "Protesters" EXCESSIVE Bail Conditions REMANDED - Viva & Barnes Highlight

[Gwynnifer-bigglesworth]

@Gutshredda-zuljin

It has zero protections against abuse. It has penalties for the abuser that are enforced After The Fact. It is not Preventive it is Reactive. Huge difference.

So… a moderator abuses his power and silences you. You report him, he gets banned for abusing his power and your silence gets lifted.

That’s protection because there’s a strong disincentive to abuse power. It’s protection in the same way that laws against murder protect you. You’re right that punishment only occurs after the fact, but there’s no possible way to prevent it from ever happening, and the tradeoffs are worth it.

[Ragnök-bleeding-hollow]

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

If anything, it’s horrendously under-moderated. Algorithms feed echo chambers where people’s notions are reinforced, not argued against.

While I could argue over other things in your post I think this right here may be the root of the problem (although I may be wrong.)

If a social media platform, say Twitter decides to ban anyone over a political belief what you have left are three groups. The side who holds the same political beliefs as Twitter, people who do not share their beliefs because they fear being banned (or in some cases even losing their job) and people who just don’t care.

At that point the only political discussion will be one sided. This is how it becomes an echo chamber as you so succinctly put it.

The moderation itself is what causes echo chambers.

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

They know that they are wrong.

There are many people who do not understand it is wrong. I wish this wasn’t the case. But to not have that conversation and attempt to change their minds endangers the safety of those victims that person may abuse. It is our ethical and moral obligation to stand up and tell them why it is wrong and get them to change their belief system. Simply silencing them sends them to the darker recesses of the internet were they find like minded individuals and reinforce their beliefs. We saw this kind of radicalization with incells. In short think of the children.

[Gutshredda-zuljin]

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

Attach people’s real names and addresses to their in-game characters and there’d be far less of a problem.

Wrong. There would be more problems. Please think this thru.

[Gwynnifer-bigglesworth]

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

If a social media platform, say Twitter decides to ban anyone over a political belief what you have left are three groups.

Twitter doesn’t ban over political beliefs. They will flag/remove a tweet that’s blatant lies/misinformation. They will ban for advocating violence/insurrection.

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

This is how it becomes an echo chamber as you so succinctly put it.

Twitter already is an echo chamber. They don’t need to ban anyone. Your feed is based on the people you read. It takes less than a day for the algorithm to dial in on what gets you engaged, and it’ll feed you more of the same.

Twitter, facebook, youtube, reddit… they’re all cancers.

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

The moderation itself is what causes echo chambers.

The moderation actually counteracts echo chambers. It’s just very infrequently used and the algorithm dominates all.

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

There are many people who do not understand it is wrong. I wish this wasn’t the case. But to not have that conversation and attempt to change their minds endangers the safety of those victims that person may abuse.

Those people you can talk to and I wouldn’t label them as toxic. There’s a difference between a person who doesn’t know and is open to learning, and someone who’s spewing garbage to try to get other people worked up.

Think of it this way. The people I’m labelling as toxic are those who are trolling or worse yet actually advocate for abhorrence such as that. And you’re right, by silencing them you drive them underground.

WoW is not the forum for educating people who advocate for child abuse. Consider a sexual abuse survivor who’s trying to play WoW and then encounters Trade chat where people are saying that they asked for it and deserved it.

THAT HAPPENS NOW.

@Gutshredda-zuljin

Wrong. There would be more problems. Please think this thru.

I mean I literally said it was a bad idea and shouldn’t be done for good reasons in the sentence immediately following that. Please read my posts in their entirety if you’re going to reply to me.

I spend time, energy, and effort in presenting a reasoned argument. I would appreciate the same from you.

[Gutshredda-zuljin]

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

I mean I literally said it was a bad idea and shouldn’t be done for good reasons in the sentence immediately following that.

In the next paragraph.

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

Please read my posts in their entirety if you’re going to reply to me.

That was the whole paragraph I quoted.

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

I spend time, energy, and effort in presenting a reasoned argument.

A poorly thought out argument where you dismiss any point that is critical of your idea.

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

I would appreciate the same from you.

Begone, Troll.

[Gwynnifer-bigglesworth]

@Gutshredda-zuljin

In the next paragraph.

Which was the next sentence, was it not? Paragraphs do not indicate that the thought has closed and we’re moving onto a new one. They’re there for readability and often emphasis.

@Gutshredda-zuljin

That was the whole paragraph I quoted.

But not the post.

@Gutshredda-zuljin

A poorly thought out argument where you dismiss any point that is critical of your idea.

Several times throughout this thread I have conceded a person’s point and/or agreed with them. Can you say the same?

@Gutshredda-zuljin

Begone, Troll.

And we’re done.

[Ragnök-bleeding-hollow]

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

Twitter already is an echo chamber.

I showed how it became one. It wasn’t always the echo chamber it is now.

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

Twitter, facebook, youtube, reddit… they’re all cancers.

I agree, which is why I use none other then youtube and my interests are so varied that the system never knows what I’m going to watch. Although it is funny to see the feed trying to keep up.

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

The moderation actually counteracts echo chambers. It’s just very infrequently used and the algorithm dominates all.

Moderation is nothing more then an organic algorithm.

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

or worse yet actually advocate for abhorrence such as that.

And these are the people who need to hear opposing arguments not just be silenced. If they are silenced it will cause nothing but resentment and a further strengthening of that belief. We should try to change their minds whether such attempts are likely to succeed or not.

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

WoW is not the forum for educating people who advocate for child abuse.

Do you think the people that advocate for abuse would frequent a forum that stands against it? Do you think that people who stand against abuse go looking for forums were it is considered acceptable? The best place to start is were both sides come into contact with each other.

'm having a problem figuring out how you have all the pieces and 90% of the puzzle is done and you still can’t see the picture, and I suspect you may feel the same. I’m not sure how I can explain this any clearer then I already have so I may let others do so instead.

[Gutshredda-zuljin]

Question. Since you are for… rules enforcement. Why did you violate the forum rules on spam?

In-game chat desperately needs moderation

Chat channels in-game are hellholes of toxicity. It’s not possible to ignore everyone, and ignore doesn’t solve the problem when the chat is dominated by a toxic person and people replying to them. This is the biggest reason why I do not play retail anymore. WoW is primarily a chat service backed by a game that provides conversation starters. Without chat, WoW - especially Retail - is a single-player game with NPCs driven by other players rather than an AI. However, chat is so toxic that my de…

[Gutshredda-zuljin]

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

Do you think the people that advocate for abuse would frequent a forum that stands against it?

To be fair… Twitter, which we can both agree is a larger forum than this, a few months ago had this exact same problem. I think they are still sorting thru that mess.

[Teufelgott-shadowsong (Teufelgott)]

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

I’m asking for moderation because there are some truly despicable things that regularly come up in chat, and these people are often very adept at avoiding crossing explicit ToS rules, while violating the spirit of them.

So do you want more moderation, or do you want more restrictive chat rules?

[Ragnök-bleeding-hollow]

@Gutshredda-zuljin

To be fair… Twitter, which we can both agree is a larger forum than this, a few months ago had this exact same problem. I think they are still sorting thru that mess.

I was not aware of this. I do hope it became more then a shouting match and arguments were made that changed the minds of at least some people so that they are no longer comfortable with abuse. If thats the case then despite it being a mess it may have been a net positive anyway.

[Gutshredda-zuljin]

No… it became more than just a shouting match. Much more. I’m actually surprised you weren’t aware of it, but in the end it dealt with the MAP thing if that helps.

[Teufelgott-shadowsong (Teufelgott)]

@Gwynnifer-bigglesworth

Volunteer mods would be limited to temporary silence and referral to Blizzard for followup. They would not be able to ban, etc.

So, they would temporarily silence the offending player until Blizzard could review the incident and determine the fate of the accused?

Because that’s exactly what the current system does.

[Gwynnifer-bigglesworth]

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

Moderation is nothing more then an organic algorithm.

The social media algorithms act as amplifiers. Moderation, properly done, acts as a dampener. Movement still occurs, but spikes are fewer and smaller in amplitude.

By way of example, consider a child. This child wants to eat candy and nothing but candy. The social media algorithm would say “oh, you like Candy? Have you seen this candy? What about this one? Oh, everyone really loves this candy!”

A moderator would say “hey hey hey, hold up. Candy is fine, but you also need food that has nutritional value beyond sugar”

You’re absolutely right that a moderator could also say “anyone who tells you you shouldn’t only eat candy is wrong”, but… that’s not what I’m asking for here

I recognize that there is the potential for abuse. I recognize humans are flawed creatures. But we have a long and storied history of reasonable people blunting extremism, and we need that here.

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

Do you think the people that advocate for abuse would frequent a forum that stands against it?

I think that the people who are reachable are those who are still new to those ideas. And those people will discuss those ideas in all kinds of forums. If they fail to be shown those ideas are antithetical to society, they will grow and become entrenched.

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

The best place to start is were both sides come into contact with each other.

I agree with you here. But WoW is not a forum for people who hold severely antagonistic ideas to hash those ideas out. WoW is a game. It’s a reality escape. There are people who play WoW who have suffered all kinds of grievous injuries in their lives (mental, emotional, or physical).

Why should those people be forced to choose between playing the game or protecting themselves from having to listen to people echoing those inner thoughts that it’s all their fault, that they encouraged it, etc?

What I am getting at here is simple. You’re absolutely correct that it’s critically important to society that we have forums where violently opposed ideas can be aired and discussed by people on both sides.

But that should not be any forum, and WoW, a game rated for Teens, should not be that forum. I happily engage in debate with people who hold opposing views in other mediums on a regular basis. But everyone needs a respite. Everyone needs a break. And refusing to address that “forum creep” into WoW means that WoW is no longer a break or respite from the world.

And why, for the love of all that is good in the world, are you advocating for making a game into such a forum?

@Ragnök-bleeding-hollow

I’m not sure how I can explain this any clearer then I already have so I may let others do so instead.

I do agree that I’m not seeing a route to convincing each other here. But I do feel that we’ve both heard each other and listened to each other’s arguments, and I am well satisfied to agree to disagree.

I want to thank you personally and specifically for being willing and able to engage in a civil and respectful debate on this matter, even if we were not able to come to an agreement.

[Gutshredda-zuljin]

@Teufelgott-shadowsong

Because that’s exactly what the current system does.

I’ll save you the wait time on a response… she will argue that the current system doesn’t work and we need more reactive enforcement up to and including her obvious (to everyone else looking at it) problematic Volunteer Moderation system. She is now in “Stand Your Ground” mode.

[Gwynnifer-bigglesworth]

@Gutshredda-zuljin

Question. Since you are for… rules enforcement. Why did you violate the forum rules on spam?

What forum rules did I violate?

Specifically, I am for civil discourse and mutual respect. Often that aligns with rules, but not always, and in the latter case, I typically advocate for protesting and fighting against those rules to have them changed to something better.

@Teufelgott-shadowsong

So do you want more moderation, or do you want more restrictive chat rules?

I chafe against restrictions generally. I want moderation, where a human can say “this hasn’t yet reached a level where it needs to be stopped” and “ok, that’s enough, this stops here”.

We do not yet possess the technology to do that with an algorithm of any kind.

[Gutshredda-zuljin]

Double posting in two different forums on the exact same subject. See link.

Your CS thread was locked by a CS Moderator yesterday. You created both threads two days ago. Please review the CoC.

[Gwynnifer-bigglesworth]

@Gutshredda-zuljin

Double posting in two different forums on the exact same subject. See link.

Clearly you did not read the thread. The replies there told me to remake the thread here. And I did. I didn’t create both at the same time, one followed the other.

Here I end my engagement for the day. My wife is upset that I am spending too much of my attention here, and not enough on her. I will resume replying tomorrow.

I say this only to stave off any confusion or speculation as to why I have abruptly stopped responding after demonstrating presence and rapid response.

[Ragnök-bleeding-hollow]

@Gutshredda-zuljin

I’m actually surprised you weren’t aware of it

Only because you don’t know me. I tend to divide a ton of time to programming art, recent scientific studies, some law, black smithing, survival, bow making, wood carving, military podcasts, game design, DnD, MTG, history, book clubs, cooking, some political channels etc. I rarely follow any trends and only hear about them in cases like this.

MAPs in their wellbeing and to facilitate a happy, non-offending life for those it helps.

If this is true I have to say good on those guys. There isn’t much they can do about attraction/compulsion or what they like but they can decide to not hurt people. This shows an amazing strength of character. I hope they keep it up and find the support they need to continue to not offend.