Quite a lot of people get punished, actually. But you don’t dictate the timetable or level or punishment. Just because you don’t believe the punishment is meted out fast enough or is harsh enough doesn’t mean it is insufficient.
If it truly bothers you as much as it would appear, there are add-ons out there to mitigate the impact it has on you. There’s also the nuclear option you lowkey threatened to deploy the other day… unsubscribe. Find a game and a community that more closely aligns with your values, morals and sensibilities.
I’m not saying the punishment is insufficient. I’m saying that reporting is insufficient to clean up chat. The evidence is plain in that the problem is getting worse, not better.
This seems easily solved by turning off trade chat. What could you possibly need it open for anyways? Lol.
Like, if you are so easily offended, maybe you shouldn’t be online in the first place. The internet, whether playing games, browsing forums, or Facebook, are inherently toxic. People from all walks of life stating opinions to stir up conversation and banter, or just people that are lonely with no one else to voice to that are angry at the world.
Seriously though, either turn trade chat off or stop being so triggered by something you have every ability to not read or turn off.
I don’t think it is to much to ask when you ignore someone that it is account wide. I hate when I do that and then have to do it again if I’m playing an alt a few min later.
Also the ignore feature should be unlimited.
Indeed I am not sure, when I don’t know something I don’t make something up.
Behavior that intentionally detracts from others’ enjoyment (such as griefing, throwing, feeding, etc.) is unacceptable. We expect our players to treat each other with respect and promote an enjoyable environment. Acceptable behavior is determined by player reports and Blizzard’s decision, and violating these guidelines will result in account and gameplay restrictions.
Note how broad the rules are. While a few people have been silenced for a short time for anal spam most have not and it seems up to the number of people who report it (auto silenced) and the view of the person whom is reviewing it.
And if you have actually taken the time to read any of my posts then you would realize that my problem with further moderation (that the op wants) has the same problems which I already addressed but I’ll repeat yet again (though only the two subjects that are shown in this specific case.)
The rules have to be intentionally vague.
The rules are open to the values and whims of the individual moderator.
I don’t understand this. Maybe its my age or it could be my autism if its meant to be sarcastic.
My response was intentionally condescending because your arguments make little to no sense, you bring up things that are not being discussed and you can’t seem to grasp relatively simple concepts when they are explained to you. As far as a sparring partner for a debate I find you lacking. Due to this I have decided to switch from debater to a teacher and take the time to explain the concepts.
I’m not sure why you would assume no one would join into a private conversation with myself.
I’m not sure if you have ever had to hold conversations in trade, officer chat, guild chat, several communities, several discords, and multiple whispers at once. It becomes unmanageable if there are multiple great conversations and its extremely annoying to have to try to switch between 12 people whispering you. It causes people to feel hurt because you may miss their tell, I often whisper the wrong person back and to be honest instead of being the hub I’d rather just have an open conversation were everyone can participate and we can see even more peoples views.
Now I will address your issue here.
Fist I’ll demonstrate how bad your reasoning is by turning it back on yourself.
trade chat isn’t your personal chat channel.
it’s a public channel.
it’s not named Nobully’s chat.
People who want to use the channel, shouldn’t be prevented from using it because you can’t figure out how to use an addon or how to not allow words to hurt your feefees.
If the same argument can be used for both sides then its not a good argument.
In between ones at the moment as I’m contemplating a server transfer to a higher pop server. I usually am in some meta guild or another though.
I would have thought that was clear from the context of our conversation. We is those individuals who value the ability to have a an open conversation without the fear that what they say will get them punished. It also means those individuals who enjoy conversations about a huge variety of subjects. I have met biologists and had conversations about the oddity of sexuality in the animal kingdom, I have had conversations with the religious and athiest were good arguments are made on both sides, were you learn more about nonchristian religions (I met a hmong whos father was a shaman, who would have thought.) There have been great prolife prochoice arguments and they have been so well written that I changed my mind.
These are the people that are included in that “we.”
In fact I was already aware of that. Its one of those idiotic moves by blizzard that make absolutly 0 sense.
In practice however it is rarely enforced as people who really don’t want to see swearing enable the filter so don’t see the chat that they would wish to flag. It really takes a special kind of person to sit through something they find distasteful just to prevent other people for doing a behavior they don’t like. That is what I don’t understand.
What is the psychological drives that feed that feeling of wanting to control everyone around them. Is it just narcissism? I don’t think so as (though I think in many cases it certainly plays a part, I just don’t see it as the primary drive) many seem genuinely disturbed by opinions and at times even facts.
I should see if Aydin Paladin already has a video on this or would be willing to make one. I find it fascinating in much the same way I find what drives serial killers to be fascinating.
Now something you would find me agreeing to is a world chat were any and everything can be discussed from politics to sex to religion and can be see and interacted with from anywhere in the world including instances. It is disabled on default and you have to enable it, therefore agreeing to seeing viewpoints or content you might find offensive. This would then allow trade to be moderated to only be used for the purpose of trading.
Its a simple solution that would resolve almost everyone’s issues about the subject. It would be easy and quick to implement.
Please understand me. I’m all for civil discussion of any topic. I’m not for making jokes about sexually assaulting children or the myriad other edgelord topics that people like to throw up because it stirs the pot.
I’m asking for moderation because there are some truly despicable things that regularly come up in chat, and these people are often very adept at avoiding crossing explicit ToS rules, while violating the spirit of them.
When participating in communication of any kind (chat, voice communication, group finder), you are responsible for how you express yourself. You may not use language that could be offensive or vulgar to others.
Hate speech and discriminatory language is inappropriate, as is any obscene or disruptive language. Threatening or harassing another player is always unacceptable, regardless of language used. Violating any of these expectations will result in account restrictions. More serious and repeated violations will result in greater restrictions.
this is a squelch.
there is no “auto silence”.
indeed.
it’s a public chat.
there’s no reason people should need addons to remove chat which doesn’t belong there.
if people can’t behave appropriately, they deserve whatever educational account actions come their way.
just because people WANT to discuss something, doesn’t mean it’s appropriate for a GAME setting.
the filter doesn’t remove the chat.
it censors the words.
it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what those words are.
the filter is kind of pointless.
i don’t know.
ask blizzard.
they’re the ones who make the rules.
Personally I abhor censorship. What’s wrong with ideas being discussed? Perhaps because they prove themselves to be bad or good if people speak/listen of them?
In reality toxicity is being used as an excuse to suppress the free will of others in an effort to exert some kind of control over them. How little faith does humanity have in their brothers?
Lastly it’s not the toxic ones you should be worried about but the ones cowering in the dark behind them prodding them on.
Why does it feel like the OP is making a argument for more Police in game?
It’s amusing how the OP just drives around and ignores that there are already in game tools to report (and if enough people report the person… a temp squelch) to deal with extremely problematic people.
As I pointed out to him/her… the volunteer police he/she is advocating for is fundamentally flawed (Riot had a tribunal system… how did that eventually turn out again? A disproportional amount of punishments were given… some where the “offender” didn’t break a rule and was reported for saying “Hi”)
Right… because there are rules lawyers out there that will find a loop hole in a strictly defined “rule”… anyone that disagrees with this has never played D&D with “that one guy” who hyper analyzes (usually to his own benefit) every rule and exploits the rules.
Yup… much like real life policing… one officer may throw the ticket book at you for every little infraction (Barney Fife policing) or they may just make you aware you have a tail light out.
I’ve addressed this many times, in this thread. To repeat: The simple fact that things are getting worse, not better, indicates that reporting is insufficient to resolve the problem.
One bad implementation (that I never argued for) doesn’t mean that the idea is fundamentally flawed. You’ll note that I didn’t advocate for a tribunal system, I advocated for designated mods who could be both removed and censured if they abused their power. The censure would include up to a complete ban, depending on severity of the abuse.
Volunteer mods would be limited to temporary silence and referral to Blizzard for followup. They would not be able to ban, etc.
That is nothing like Riot’s tribunal system, which begs the question… what relevance does it have to this discussion?
Moderation is needed. Everyone here, even those opposed, agree that chat is often problematic. The solutions are certainly debated and disagreed upon. What I’ve asked for is for a moderation system that has built-in protections against abuse.
In this way we can have moderation when it’s needed, but not over moderation.
I get what you mean but its a very fine line to tread (censorship). There was a time where ideas were freely discussed for others to accept or reject as they saw fit. This insatiable need to control the thoughts & opinions of others did not exist.
Humanity faces another crisis & that is with evil (serving ones self) & the foolhardy who choose to follow them. (They’re heading for the REAL Torghast ya know? But in this ones in eternity; is real & predicating ones existence on devouring others will not sustain.
There was a time when ancient Greek philosophers spoke; & what they spoke ignited the catalyst into the golden age we now enjoy.
That sparks going to have to be re ignited but I fear that’s only possible after a critical mass of sufferings been endured. The answers extremely simple for society as a whole.
I’ll define so there’s no confusion. Punish evil (serving ones self) & reward good (people who contribute to society & the well being of others)
/end of roleplay lightly sprinkled with truth bombs
With this I think we can agree. If you search my search history you will see a huge blow out over the advocation of child abuse. It was sick enough that I left the game for a long while because of it. Even here though as much as it disgusts me and I had to leave there is a need for and should be conversation about that subject. We should use good arguments and reasoning to prove to those on the other side that they are wrong. In this case show the correlation and possible causation between sexual abuse and more then 30 mental illnesses victims develop due to that abuse.
To me the only things that should be moderated are calls to violence (specifically physical) and anything that is illegal. And here what I failed to realize previously and needed time to step back and see is that while the abuse itself is illegal talking about its advocation is not.
I realize that through out my posts I am using the slippery slope fallacy as a basis for my objections. However I think that in light of the over moderation we see on social media its based on enough evidence that it would be true despite the fallacy.
If we try to make as many people as possible happy I really think the introduction of shall we call it a world troll channel would be the best method. Otherwise I think moderation would end with even more people leaving wow as it socially isolates people. Something we have enough of in real life and blizzard has already introduced enough of with chromie time and warmode.
I’m a little conflicted with this post mainly because I am definitely a Free speech first kind of guy. Part of the problem becomes that WoW is completely private property that we buy in to. So in that vein, I kinda feel like it’s up to Blizzard to decide what speech is cool and what isn’t.
It’s kind of like how Facebook and Twitter have been silencing right leaning commentators. It really does piss me off, but at the same time I feel like, it’s technically private property and they can decide what they want available to the public to read.
Clearly I’m stuck between personal/private rights of a business, and the Free Speech that is an unalienable right to all that live in the USA.
I feel much the same although at this point social media has also claimed the status of a public utility in court when it benefits them and therefore 230 should not be applicable. Pick whether you are a utility or an editor, they shouldn’t be able to get the best of both worlds while ignoring the limitations of both.
This is made worse by the fact that we see clear monopolization that prevents alternatives.
As a legal standing Blizz clearly has a right to moderate if they choose to. Most of my posts have been about wither it is ethical to do so. And the long term consequences if they decided to.
Strong men make great times.
Great times make weak people.
Weak people create problems.
Problems make bad times.
Right now it seems weak people are overly offended and cry for more moderation when you could just stop associating with them, leave chat, or stop being so easily offended and get on with life as it dosent effect your life.
Constantly letting internet dialogue trigger you ensures you gonna be miserable in a media where no one freakin cares.
Just saying…your post is pretty rage filled and toxic.
Ok, so if a business decides to open up shop on U.S. soil shouldn’t that business be held to account for the laws of the land? (Constitution & the rights there in)?
Just because a business operates on private property doesn’t mean they have the right to deny what thousands fought bled & died for (free speech) that’s supposedly enshrined in the highest laws of the land. Private property doesn’t mean they should be excluded from laws that bind us all (IMO).
How can a business on private property deny us what our own power structure is specifically built to prevent our own government from doing?
That’s another topic for discussion; are we really free once the first law is made?
Attach people’s real names and addresses to their in-game characters and there’d be far less of a problem.
But that won’t happen for obvious (and good) reasons. Anonymity leads to abhorrent behaviour very often. There’s a reason why many people are polite and well behaved IRL and toxic edgelords online - and it’s because of the lack of consequences.
The internet, and more specifically, social media echo chambers, have amplified toxicity. And without creating some system where people can be held accountable for their speech and actions (as exists IRL), the problem will only continue and get worse.
The people here don’t need to be proven that they are wrong. They know that they are wrong. They’re spewing that garbage because they know that it offends the sensibilities of others, and it makes them happy to see other people react to what they say.
What over-moderation on social media? If anything, it’s horrendously under-moderated. Algorithms feed echo chambers where people’s notions are reinforced, not argued against. The only moderation I see on social media are when people do cross those lines into advocating violence, insurrection, etc.
Have you seen the technology for deep fakes? We’ve already entered into a post-truth era. Guarding against misinformation and preventing its spread is the only defense we have against the impending dark ages that threaten us all.
I mean if it’s implemented wrongly, you’re right that it could be worse. But a well-implemented system where the mods are held accountable would function well indeed.
The key here is accountability. This is what I’m asking for - that people be held fairly accountable for their words and actions.
How much research have you done into volunteer community policing have you done? I suggest you read up on it. Also… a company giving power to a volunteer moderator is liable for any actions that volunteer commits while empowered as such. A volunteer being punished after the fact for harassing a user (or users) by abusing their power would not end well for the company ultimately responsible for the actions.
A example of volunteer moderation and the inherent problems with such a system.
Once again… there are tools already available for you, the user, to report and block communication with people you deem “toxic”. As is evident by the “complaint” threads on the forums when people are punished for in game actions… they do work.
Because bad people given limited authority over other people has never been abused. Yes I acknowledge that you say the person abusing the power will be punished… but the damage the person with the power inflicts on another user is not something that goes away, even with time.
Also, the legal liability that a company would have to assume is too much risk vs reward.
It has zero protections against abuse. It has penalties for the abuser that are enforced After The Fact. It is not Preventive it is Reactive. Huge difference.
As has been proven, bad people with power will abuse that power/authority over other people regardless of what the penalties are.
I don’t blame them for being toxic, what are they toxic about? Being lied to from birth? I used to be one of them.
Edit: & sadly yes, there must be consequences because being a good person isn’t rewarded. BTW, I avoid social media for the cesspit of ignorance it is. Much rather spend my time reading.
