This is a spin-off topic from the “Mythic Mythic Plus” thread.
Instead of raid levels (LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic), how about a raid+ system?
I couldn’t see raid keystones working out too well, but maybe something similar to how Torghast worked with finer granularity for raiding, vs. the static 4 levels.
Additionally, maybe at Raid Level “X,” in order to form a raid, everyone in the raid group needs to have completed a certain level (e.g. like a “Mythic” entry point). Below “X,” maybe it’s not necessary.
Number of raiders in the raid is another factor, so the system math could get complex, but I doubt it would be too crazy a stretch in 2023. 
Any thoughts?
Even M+ has too many players imo. But a raid+ would probably be like a speed clear with affixes.
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Sigh… these are just the types of terrible ideas that blizzard will probably listen to.
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We don’t. It was just an idea. I was just trying to initiate a discussion.
All this + here and there… It gets old and becomes chore in the long run.
Hopefully they never do affixes in raid ever again, because it was a disaster when they tried it at the end of Shadowlands.
Like when that time acceleration affix was making bombs explode almost instantly on Jailer. Then Blizzard said they fixed it. But 6 weeks later when it popped up again, they still hadn’t fixed it. So they said they fixed it again. But then they didn’t. So then finally, near the end of the season, they were like no no, this time we fixed it for real.
How about when the soak circles were spawning 20 feet up in the air on Mythic Lords of Dread and you couldn’t do the fight?
etc.
etc.
etc.
Raids are broken enough already, half the time.
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Okay. It’s a terrible idea.
How about instead we talk about how the numerous problems with raiding can be fixed?
Make Mythic scale with raid size (like all other difficulties) from 10 to 30 players.
Make bosses individually skippable so you don’t have to kill 5 bosses to get to 1 with a “skip”.
Make skips work after 1 kill.
Double the number of loot drops in raid to bring in on par per-person with dungeons.
Rework great vault to give continuous gear drip during extend progression.
Stop with the 14-minute final boss fights.
Stop with the spreadsheet bosses.
Stop with the specific class requirements (Evokers on Mythic Raz being the latest example.)
Let’s get all these things fixed before talking about crazy ideas that will mess up raiding even more than it already is.
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Can we just re-implement scenarios in group finder, and not worry about putting it more ways to speedclear time trial stuff really? 
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How about
Flex/LFR - as an easy mode you can either que into or bring your friends for a tutorial difficulty of the raid in flex.
Normal - Queable in the LFG tool (after completing base difficulty) or by pugging.
Heroic - The highest difficulty without being just DDR with dumb raid mechanics, no boss encounters over 5 minutes because this isn’t dark souls as much as people want it to be.
3 difficulties with a focus on being on fun instead of being a “Fiberglass eating contest” simulator
Considering people leaving in the middle of dungeon keys is already bad enough.
Imagine if a tank left and a few other people leaving with them, because it didn’t look like a promised on time raid +.
Consider the factor of getting to the last boss and people leaving in the middle or before pull.
The majority of raids have more bosses than dungeons so all that time would have been for nothing for the ones who stayed.
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These are all great points.
Completing a timer would have to provide something extra, but not so over-the-top that people would want to just leave at the first sign that things were going south (though that might happen anyways in a PuG raid). Perhaps an extra piece of gear or two. Not sure.
If the timer wasn’t satisfied, then still provide a standard raid reward system with more granularity on the item levels.
Also a good point that this might be adding too much fuel to the fire, so to speak, if there are too many bugs / issues with 4 levels as it stands.
Appreciate the interesting commentary.
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A friend of mine who was reading this mentioned an “LFR+” lol. Kind of an interesting idea.
I think the thought is that you could break it into the “wings” for those who struggle to find an appropriate time block to raid, but want to experience the content. And then apply some of the concepts I was talking about.
They kinda did this in SL at the end but I wouldn’t mind it
Also, Brewa, I see you’ve decided to ignore the topic of Mythic Mythic Plus. Isn’t that what you’ve said you wanted to see for M+, progressive mechanics layered into the highest keys?
What I want is for M+ to not be required for progression raiding.
I’m not going to comment on whatever M+ enthusiasts want for their own amusement. Not my bailiwick. Same reason I don’t comment on arena.
Yes, Raid Raid Plus. I’d be very happy for you guys to have this. I hope that you all have lots of fun in it. Sayonara Waves lol
No, let raids and mythic+ be different from each other.
Infinite scaling causes a lot of problems, especially for healing, that static scaling doesn’t have.
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Sounds fine to me. We tried Ion’s experiment and at this point I’m all too ready for them to “pull the ripcord” and just make M+ its own thing. Especially with 10.1 tipping the scales mostly back in Mythic Raidings favor other than the Aspect Crest farming (which I don’t like as an M+ player), I’d rather they just put up a wall and keep those eco-systems somewhat separate.
