Well atleast Blizzard was right. Players do suck the fun out of the game where possible. No wonder retail is such a time-gated mess.
retailâs awesome. you just donât know how to have fun.
You forgot about paladin blessings. There is a reason significantly more alliance guilds have cleared naxx than horde. Think of all the utility shaman and paladins have and paladins in most cases provide far more useful raid utility.
And yet a near equal number of guilds on Horde and Alliance have killed Sapphiron (150 Alliance to 142 Horde).
Can you exactly quantify the benefit of Paladins over Shamans on Sapphiron and explain why that made the difference?
Sapphiron is an endurance fight. Blessing of kings and wisdom give healers more hp, more mana, and more regen. Judgement of wisdom also helps return mana. Judgement of light helps heal. Bubble can be used in a pinch. Paladin auras are mana free and easier to manage. Paladins donât have mana issues.
Guilds are using WB to down Sapph, which downplays alliance advantage. Take those away, and horde have almost no chance to meet the endurance threshold. Itâs possible to kill Sapph without WB, but everyone uses consumes, including flasks. This hard mode would forbid consumes.
Blessing of kings is reason enough for alliance to have a huge advantage. Try Naxx without WB and youâll see how huge the extra HP is. Mages are also more effective on alliance because the get a bigger mana pool and better regen.
Go look at Sapph logs of no WB kills. Of the 181 kills logged, only 33 are horde. This isnât a coincidence.
Why does anything need to be changed for this? I mean dont get the world buffs, and consider it fixed. Poof hard mode activated. its a player issue nothing needing a change its like trying a dungeon naked you can control the difficulty.
Okay, so youâve got a general idea of why you think thereâs a difference. NowâŚ
I want you to put numbers to it.
True, but how much, really?
In full BiS, BoK grants a Priest:
290 HP
534 Mana
2.98 Mp5 â over 7m fastest Horde kill w/o WBs, thatâs 250 mana.
The DPS Kings offers is worth noting, but a Warrior in BiS gains:
310 HP
74 AP
1.12% Crit
However, they are losing Windfury and/or Grace of Air. Windfury is a little more complicated to quantify because of rage gain, but Grace of Air is 4.43% Crit.
So Alliance gains 310 HP and 74 AP for 3.31% crit. Not worth it, by the way, if you happen to not know Warrior stat weights in Phase 6. Thatâs a DPS loss, and quite a big one.
But wait, DPS wouldnât wear their normal DPS gear; theyâd wear Frost Resist. That means Alliance actually gains WAY less than that, while the Horde value of totems remains exactly the same.
MST gives 31.25 Mp5. BoW gives 39.6 Mp5. 8.35 Mp5 difference. 701 mana.
Auras being mana free is true, but proper positioning will provide the full benefit of the totems, and Horde brings more Shamans than Alliance brings Paladins. Consider the DTPS reduction that more raidwide Frost Resistance offers. Easier to manage, though? Yeah, true.
Paladins also donât mana issues; thatâs true, but remember, Priests are carrying that fight. Shamans are there to drop totems and occasionally Chain Heal. Priests do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to healing the raid. Without world buffs, Druids can heal the tanks while simultaneously HoTing nearby allies.
Letâs look at Mages. Iâll be generous and assume the Mage is in a Paladin group so they can wear some DPS gear with their Frost Resist set. Even with Atiesh, a Mage gains:
290 HP
380 Mana
0.42% Spell Crit
2.9 Mp5 = 243 Mana + 700 Mana from BoW.
Letâs do the math for JoW. 4,729 Mana Pool to start. 15.45 Mp5 from Mage Armor = 1,298 Mana. 6,027 (both factions get this much). 410 base mana cost for Fireball. 17.45% crit chance, 30% mana refund on crit, so 5.235% mana reduction, 388.53 mana cost on average. 15.51 Fireballs. Evocation will regen 3,296 Mana. Another 8.48 Fireballs. Clearcasting gives a 10% chance to make the next one free when it lands. 13% Spell hit, so 10% * 96% = 9.6% chance to get an extra Fireball. 24 Fireballs, 9.6% chance each, an extra 2.3 Fireballs. 26.3 Fireballs.
584 Spell Power, 678 base damage, 40% ignite damage, 10% extra fire damage (double dipping with Ignite). 40% * 110% * 17.45% = 7.68% extra damage from Ignite on average (Mages donât tell to roll Ignites on this fight). 1,262 * 1.1 = 1,388 * 1.2513 = 1,736 damage on average.
1,736 * 26.3 = 45,678 damage
Kings reduces the average cost of Fireball by 0.5 because of the extra crit. 1,323 extra mana, totalling 7,350. Kings causes Evocation to restore an additional 246 mana, totalling 3,542. 10,892 mana / 388 cost = 28.1 casts. 1.77 additional casts of Fireball from Kings and BoW combined.
JoW is 50% chance to restore 59 mana. 28.1 * 0.5 * 59 = 829 mana. 2.14 additional casts. 3.9 additional Fireballs, totalling 30.2 Fireballs for Alliance.
The extra crit grants an additional 0.18% damage from Ignite. 1,388 * 1.2573 = 1,745 damage on average.
1,745 * 30.2 = 52,704 - 45,678 = 7,026 more damage for a Mage in full BiS.
Thatâs not accounting for the fact that Mages have to decurse rather than just spam Fireball the whole time, and they can wand for more JoW procs. If they wanted every time they werenât Fireballing, theyâd gain an additional 6,478 mana.
Thatâs an additional 16.69 casts. Of course, those extra casts means less time wanding, so just to avoid all the complicated math, weâll say ~5,000 extra mana. 12.88 additional casts. 22,487 more damage on top of the 7,026, totaling 29,513 extra damage (per Mage). Thatâs pretty good!
But wait, Alliance loses Windfury. 20% chance to deal an extra attack. A melee would gain an average of roughly 20,000 extra damage from Windfury, and most raids have more melee than Mages. Donât forget Grace of Air!
That means Horde does more DPS overall, favoring melee, and Alliance favors ranged. This is reflected in the logs. Alliance groups tend to have more Mages (because their Mages last longer). Horde groups have more Warriors (because their Warriors do more DPS and donât need to worry about that mana nonsense).
From this we can conclude that Horde really shouldnât have any problem killing Sapphiron. The difference in HPS is practically nonexistent. Horde kills it faster, so doesnât need to last as long, and takes less damage, so needs to heal less. The extra mana gained on Alliance is not even necessary for healers (speaking from personal experience), but if itâs utilized, itâs going to result in minimal additional healing done. Without world buffs, groups could afford to use mana efficient HoTs and sustain themselves twice as long.
Iâm just saying the point of this thread is to make a hard mode wihtout consumes. Every hit point, every bit of mana regen matters when you take that away. That was my point.
There are other benefits of paladins such as improved lay on hands. You also didnât factor in blessing of might. Horde melee will do more dps, but your math doesnât account for that attack power.
Extra HP across the raid, even a few hundred hit points matters a lot on a fight like sapphiron, especially without consumes.
The fact is more alliance guilds have killed Sapph without WB by a huge margin. Stop trying to say the two factions are equally equipped to handle such a fight. If it was 60/40 you could say itâs the type of players that play horde. But itâs almost a 5:1 margin.
Itâs the culmination of these slight advantages. Horde can overcome these with consume use and take advantage of what shaman bring, but a hard mode such as this thread proposes would put horde at a huge disadvantage.
Absolutely, but it wouldnât be the difference between possible as Alliance and impossible as Horde.
Harder? Sure.
Youâre talking about a 7 minute long fight. Improved Lay on Hands lasts 2 minutes, and youâre not using that mid fight to keep it outside of an emergency âIâm OOM and someone needs healingâ Lay on Hands.
Fair, but Windfury outweighs that and BoK combined, especially if youâre talking about someone who isnât BiS and isnât fully world buffed.
Trust me, 300-500 HP per person isnât going to make or break that fight unless youâre REALLY bad.
I didnât say they were. I said it was possible for Horde to do it without world buffs or consumes.
On Sapphiron, and Sapphiron alone. On every other fight, Iâd rather be Horde for the DPS.
because its an unnecessary change
Because its free will.
what are you talking about
https://ibb.co/TKYcXHX
https://ibb.co/M2NqLhf
What is this nonsense?
the time is now
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Would be cool if they had an option to not use World Buffs, using this specific raid setting would increase the item level rewards from bosses by some type of set margin
Youâre claiming you want Hard-Mode Raiding; but what youâre really asking for is Easy-Mode Raid Preparation.
If you want Hard-Mode Raiding:
- Ask for increased Mob and Boss Stats (HP, Damage Output, Increased Resistances, Variable Talents)
- Increased Difficulty in Execution - i.e. Mechanics (kill orders, larger threat range, higher penalties for chaining, etc).
- Timers (Kill Timer Requirements, Variable Special Timers)
- Reduce Debuff Slots on Bosses.
Feenix Warsong had Naxx raid difficulty perfected. Classic is effectively child-mode by comparison.
LOL
Loatheb LOL