Imagine dungeons without mythic+.
5 Likes
Imagine?
My dude, I lived it, during Wrath of the Lich King.
Amazing content eventually turned stale as a result. 
My hope is that in The Last Titan, Blizzard revamps most of the Wrath dungeons as M+. 
(Except Ahn’Kahet - that needs to be added to M+ this expack!)
Might as well mail M10 loot to you as soon as you sign up.
For WoW? Timers are bad game design. Obviously it depends on the genre.
7 Likes
Why not substantiate the claim with some reasoning?
Why are timers bad game design for WoW?
I’ve always been against the timer in M+
Add more boss mechanics, more bosses, extra sections to the dungeon as you increase the difficulty rather than slapping on a timer for everything.
That’s one of the reasons I really liked the dungeons in RIFT. They didn’t just make you run the same dungeon and and again as you increased the difficulty, they extended the dungeon and made you fight harder bosses with more mechanics. Here’s an example of that. One of the first dungeons you can do in the game is called Iron Tomb and when you do the dungeon on normal difficulty there are only 3 bosses, but when you move up to expert difficulty, you have to fight 6 bosses. On top of that all the existing bosses get a lot tougher, either having new abilities, add summons or they just use their existing mechanics a lot more quickly.
10 Likes
In 20 years I dont think I can remember a single time I complained about anyone in heroic/norms? frankly I was probably running straight to the boss pulling everythign along the way… and going way too fast in norm/heroics to care about anything anyone does in those…
4 Likes
Have you been avoiding the forums for the last couple months. There has been a constant flow of threads about getting kicked from normal/heroic/TW’ing dungeons…or people dropping after 1 boss
So maybe not YOU, but it happens
Because they cause toxic players to leave after one single wipe.
They cause players to be absurdly picky on relatively low level keys that are not even remotely hard like a 3 key…
Because the elements of playing at a significantly higher level, but without a timer… would be incredibly fun! Did you play the game back in the day when we used to have to CC stuff for pve? man… that was the best time ever! Now the only cc we do is to interrupt.
Have you ever played cod zombies? No timers there… you can make it to round 80 in a few hours or in 10 hours, no one cares… you still go on the leaderboard for making it to round 80. The content just gets harder and harder…
Even if it wasnt a permanent change it would be fun for a season to try it!! Which I dont expect blizzard to do something as wild as changing something for a season… but just saying it would be FUN!
3 Likes
M+ without timers already exists. it’s 0’s. essentially old +2-10 are now timerless.
removing the timer from every key wouldn’t reduce toxicity either.
the community is what’s toxic, not the game mode. it’s not like pug pvp or pug raiding is “a great scene.”
if you increased the scaling or where the loot drops, even on unlimited timers, people would bail on keys the moment they doubted the group would succeed, just like raid, but far more often because 5 man content places far more responsibility on the individual than raids so those doubts would arise far faster.
M+ without timers means very bd rewards or loot would be HEAVILY limited and capped weekly. M+ has a timer because you can run it infinitely for loot.
Just play a game mode that doesn’t have a timer or play with people who don’t care about timers. They exist.
1 Like
No, you’re not seeing the vision.
M0’s are easy. The whole point, would be to climb the ladder, like you do in COD zombies for example… until it gets too hard to handle… Not just content you could handle but someone screwed up and you miss the timer so everyone leaves.
The point would be to enjoy the increasingly harder content… at your own pace, but still harder, and harder, and harder to an infinite level~.
Cod went to lvl 99~ just kept getting harder and harder infinitely but only maybe 20 people made it to like 99~ at least at the time I was playing.
Edit: I comprehend this is not cod… that was just an example. the point is increasingly difficult content to an infinite level is amazing. Which is kind of what m+ is, except with a timer which kind of ruins it in a way. (Dont get me wrong I like the timer model too… In fact I love the timer model on diablo for rifts. Im just saying this different untimed model would be very fun.)
Why the qualifier of ‘toxic’?
When you have 3 people alive on a raid boss pull, do you wipe or do you keep trying when it’s at 40% HP?
M+'s structure lends itself to leading instead of wiping and resetting, though sticking together for the key after isn’t out of the question (or unheard of.)
People aren’t running lower key levels because delves exist.
I disagree. Dungeons are short form content, I don’t want them to be tuned as though they aren’t.
I’m really not even sure what to say, at this point. M+ is not comparable to a horde shooter in the slightest, nor is CoD’s zombies ubiquitous across entries.
Further, speedruns are still incredibly popular for them.
Timers are what makes M+ work.
You take the timers away then it gets re-scaled so if you couldn’t time a key, instead you wont be able to finish it.
I prefer missing on time in 30-40 minutes instead of spending an hour and half wiping until everyone agrees it’s not going to happen and gives up.
1 Like
Yes, but the keypoint there is that speed running is optional.
You’re not forced to speed run to get the ‘fastest possible time’.
What the OP would like folks to consider is the content getting harder and harder to the point where eventually you cap out and you can’t clear the content anymore, similar to Delves. Rather than you being able to clear it, but because you wiped once or twice, you will now not be able to clear the content in time resulting in your rewards getting burned and your key not upgrading to the next tier.
1 Like
Because there’s no untimed alternative. It’s that simple. If timers were an optional “speedrun” feature for M+, then that would be fine.
M+ would be cool on its own as a scaling difficulty mode without timers. Affixes, more health/damage, etc. already fulfill the challenge aspect just fine. Let the timers be like MoP challenge mode.
Forcing speedruns, skips, etc. into the bones of the system just makes it feel completely detached from what a large percentage of the player base actually wants to do.
Delves are an excellent example of what M+ could be if it didn’t rely so heavily on timers.
2 Likes
It’s called raiding. And now delves.
And delves are still popular because they vastly over reward for the relative in game effort. But they’re not that fun and that over reward is going to start shifting to over incentivized and they’re going to start being hated like torghast.
But raiding is what untimed content looks like. If the fail state is not missing on time, it becomes not being able to finish it period.
Affixes and Blizzards apparent love for them are really getting in the way of game play. They’re extremely gimmicky and the random use and one size fits all nature of them leads to endless conflicts with other mechanics like one mechanic forcing the group to split up while an affix forces the group to group up.
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This doesn’t explain why it’s bad design. And it calls to question why you don’t consider M0 an untimed variant.
There is no challenge if it is unfailable. The timer serves the same purposes that enrages do.
3 Likes
In your opinion.
Extremely unlikely.
People hated Torghast because it was forced content. The only way you got legendaries, which was a key part of your class performance, was if you did Torghast. No ifs, ands or buts. Delves are not forced at all. You can skip them entirely if you don’t want to do them and you lose nothing, you’re not losing a key chunk of class performance, you can simply gear up another way instead.