I'm just going to say it. Mythic+ is and at its core, fundamentally a mistake, and anti WoW

[Akston-area-52]

I am just not certain the challenge needed to make non timed dungeons give similar rewards as timed would be received well.

[Skalpy-darkspear]

If it being the most rewarding endgame pillar is the only reason people are doing m+ then it should have been put into the bin a long time ago.

[Bungledork-area-52]

This is an objectively wrong take.

@Linkstery-darrowmere

Everything becomes overly optimized, streamlined, and business. No messing around, no having fun, no spacing out, no taking in any casuals, no slowing yourself down, you just press w and are rewarded more for playing a single way.

At the high end this is how it always was. At the low end, it is still a ladder climb. Which exists with, or without M+.

@Linkstery-darrowmere

Just remove the timer altogether and make them like delves.

With or without the timer, at the high end things would be still min/max and hyper optimized.

I dont play at the top end, or anywhere close to it. KSM and AoTC are where I like to be. And I can always get that pugging on whatever class/spec I am enjoying playing that season.

@Linkstery-darrowmere

After playing classic I realized just how bad retail is now. There’s no sense of community at all anymore. It feels like I’m playing literally any other game

It is a completely different game. WoW has changed so much over the years, that it is vastly different from classic in almost every way. And you are correct about the community. Which started to decline as soon as cross realm started. Classic has that feeling because all the players, play on one server mostly. Retail has a lot more players, stretched across many servers. There is little feeling or sense of community. Which I agree doesnt feel great.

But, classic and retail are different games.

You look to be playing at the upper end of the community. Which is a vocal minority of the population. You are most likely better than a large portion of the players. And you appear to be right at the current edge between top end players, and players who cant quite get there. And that is where everyone min/max’s and a lot of the degenerate gameplay festers. At that Mythic Raid and +12 or higher key range, you need to find a group of people to regularly play with. Where you need to start min/max’ing. You need to adjust your group comp, spec, talents ect.

That is a level that I dont want to play at. Too much time investment. Too much pressure. Too little margin for error.

Let me ask this. Would you prefer dungeons cap at the Mythic Difficulty, and the Raid caps at the Heroic Difficulty? Where the top end of content is significantly lower? That is close to classic. What makes classic enjoyable is that the difficulty is low, and that there is a community there. Classic HC is fun as well, because EVERYTHING has value, and there is a lot of dopamine hits there. But, as for the top end of content. After you get your raid gear, you are done. And, you basically log on for the raid.

M+ was made to give people more to do than to raid log and the upper end. And it has done so. In a lot of ways it saved retail. I think your issue may be, that you are just below the top end community in either ability to schedule playtime with others, or your skill level may not be there yet. And you are frustrated. Understandable.

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

Those things would all wipe you in a raid. Take a break in between runs, not during it.

[Skalpy-darkspear]

A wipe doesn’t brick your raid.
Bad take is bad

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

It doesn’t ruin the raid, but you fail the encounter, which is what a key is. One encounter.

[Akston-area-52]

@Skalpy-darkspear

If it being the most rewarding endgame pillar is the only reason people are doing m+ then it should have been put into the bin a long time ago.

Not what I was trying to say.

I am saying that the difficulty needed to make non timed M+ on par with timed m+, it would have many people complaining.

The people not wanting timers also will not want the challenge increase that untimed m+ would bring with it.

[Skalpy-darkspear]

See that’s where I think you’re wrong

You’re saying that all, or most, or many, of the people who don’t want timers just want the game to be easier and to get the same rewards for doing less.

I just want difficulty that isn’t based on speed, I think a lot of us want difficulty that isn’t based on speed.

M+ has completely taken over the game since it was implemented for the majority of endgame players because after the weekly raid lockouts are done, there isn’t anything left to do with any real difficulty except m+.

I really think It will kill this game if they don’t do something, and I think most of the players who really enjoy m+ won’t be that bothered if it did because there’s many other online games that scratches that itch better than wow does.

[Akston-area-52]

@Skalpy-darkspear

I really think It will kill this game if they don’t do something

I think after 10 years its safe to say it will not kill the game.

@Skalpy-darkspear

You’re saying that all, or most, or many, of the people who don’t want timers just want the game to be easier and to get the same rewards for doing less.

Yes. That is literally what people say when they complain.

They want things easier and they want the same rewards for less. That is a very common thing people ask for.

So yeah. I am not saying you personally would complain. I am saying there would be many complaints about having to do keys 5 key levels higher for the same rewards.

[Skalpy-darkspear]

There’s many people complaining about all things at all times. I don’t really see that as a reason to not try something new with the game.

[Eärlindë-ravencrest]

@Dwelknarr-lothar

But this whole “everything that’s wrong with the game falls squarely on M+” shtick is just revisionist history.

I never stated that M+ is all that is wrong with WoW, but M+ is the source of the idea that every run has to be at warp speed. The statement that running any given dungeon/difficulty as fast as possible goes back to Wrath or even further is what is revisionist. The only people that will claim such are the very ones that partake in M+ now.

@Dwelknarr-lothar

Only for players who view M+ as a distraction from other game modes they want to play.

At best, this statement is ignorant. M+ is not a distraction. How could it be? The issue is that the attitude of a typical M+ player extends beyond the dungeons and into the other modes of play causing problems for other players that don’t care for that mindset or type of play.

In short, M+ can’t keep itself within M+ and people are tired of it.

@Dwelknarr-lothar

The problem isn’t that people dislike M+. It’s that they make asinine statements regarding how M+ plays, its history, and the M+ community with zero supporting evidence, and then resort to ad hominem when corrected or asked for clarification.

The irony of you making this statement.

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

I never stated that M+ is all that is wrong with WoW, but M+ is the source of the idea that every run has to be at warp speed.

Then M+ predates M+, because people wanted to clear dungeons quickly well before that. You say that’s untrue, and you are quite-laughably wrong. Nobody wants to spend a longer time doing any piece of content for the sake of it being longer.

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

The issue is that the attitude of a typical M+ player extends beyond the dungeons and into the other modes of play

Raids had enrage timers back in vanilla, so… You’re just wrong on all counts.

[Dwelknarr-lothar]

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

I never stated that M+ is all that is wrong with WoW, but M+ is the source of the idea that every run has to be at warp speed.

No, it is not. In fact, M+ significantly slowed down dungeon runs because of it scaling to levels players couldn’t survive pulling that way. Normal, heroic, M0, and time walking dungeons have been run far faster than any key that wasn’t trivial for the group.

In fact, the current plague we with tanks pulling everything onto the boss started with DF when the incoming damage profile changes to change healing made tanks basically immortal at those difficulties. It has nothing to do with M+ and everything to do with how fast the average player is capable of surviving.

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

The statement that running any given dungeon/difficulty as fast as possible goes back to Wrath or even further is what is revisionist. The only people that will claim such are the very ones that partake in M+ now.

Whether someone plays M+ now has absolutely nothing to do with how wrath dungeons were run. The reason I said wrath dungeons were speedran is because that is how the heroic dungeons I ran in wrath were run, even in PUGs. My current desire to run M+ doesn’t impact that statement at all.

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

At best, this statement is ignorant. M+ is not a distraction. How could it be? The issue is that the attitude of a typical M+ player extends beyond the dungeons and into the other modes of play causing problems for other players that don’t care for that mindset or type of play.

You tried to claim that removing M+ will remove toxicity from the game. And for players that don’t care for M+, perhaps that is true. But for players who play M+ as their primary game mode, you’ve simply reduced the reason for them to play at all. In fact, they will have a pretty strong argument to consider someone like you toxic for making claims you can’t prove and in some cases are verifiably untrue that led to the removal of how they play the game.

Further, you can’t possibly know the mentality of the players you run into. You cannot prove why they choose to pull fast, nor can you possibly trace the genesis of their motivation for doing so. You’re just projecting a convenient rationale that perfectly aligns to your point onto any player that seems to disagree with you.

@Eärlindë-ravencrest

The irony of you making this statement.

Do you care to clarify why this is ironic? I would genuinely love for you to quote a single thing I have ever said on this subject that would indicate that I think anyone should like M+.

[Hasselhoff-wyrmrest-accord]

Fair enough! Yeah my friend who can’t even do 200k dps at 80 wanted to do a +2, and I gently but firmly guided him toward delves.

[Klappghar-dreamscythe]

Lol yet here you guys are crying about the esports mythic plus model… You want to take your time you can you literally get rewards for untimed runs still everyone else is gatekeeping and wrong…

[Klappghar-dreamscythe]

Lies. Your rose tinted glasses are clearly blinding you. Most people were not doing heroic full clears in a day on casual playtimes. Straight up lies.

[Warcarnivore-skywall]

Y’all will argue dirt into the ground.

[Krafka-tichondrius]

“I dont have friends so i dont enjoy this group content”

[Cuetrap-thrall]

If you remove the timer you introduce a even more toxic form of gameplay into mythic plus. Mythic plus is terrible right now and i agree with you on most parts but the timer needs to stay. With no timer you are now making it slower than it needs to be, and more grieving. The problem with mythic plus isnt the timer, its the pug community and the crap design of dungeons, mechanics, and affixes.

[Akston-area-52]