I feel like you just replace gear at such a rapid rate it’s not worth caring about
I just leveled a monk and I got to 360+ ilvl in about 14 hours played, going completely solo in every activity.
That’s not even remotely true. Warforging and titanforging is pretty common.
The people that benefit from this the most are the one’s that play the most, be it high or low tier content. More items received, more chances of forging. Nothing to do with raiding mythic or doing world quests, because your ilvl typically reflects your standard content. A 15 ilvl titanforge from your standard content will be a 15 ilvl up for someone 360 doing WQs just like it would be a 15 ilvl upgrade from heroic.
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Kind of hard to quantify in an expansion hemorrhaging subs because every other aspect outside the raids was trash.
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I don’t find WF to be much of a problem, but TF needs to go. The jump in ilvl is too significant. If you don’t have TF, you clearly don’t have the best, and it’s RNG on RNG to get that TF piece. I never felt like I was missing much for not having a WF piece, in comparison.
Which goes to the second group of people… the ones that can’t control their own compulsions. The ones that feel like they need to do every little thing in that small hope of a titanforge/warforge (which again, is supposed to be a bonus but in typical online addict fashion we’ve turned it into a compulsion).
And no, it’s not that common. The small boost might be common but the big one (the one that matters) isn’t. Sure, it’s more common than a 1% mount but it’s in no way a reliable form of increasing your ilvl.
The idea of WF TF on paper is ok, but the jump is a bit much and the way they are acquired plays on the human psyche which ruins FOR ME at least the feeling of an achievable goals to make me feel like I gained my Character’s power in a meaningful way and not in 20 different random ways.
It all feels now meaningless to me, at least in my opinion.
People now rely on this need to attain the TF piece, the socket, the repetition of a never ending cycle that feels deflating and not enjoyable.
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That’s really only the ‘assumed’ reason. A reason that’s close to this is that people like a structured reward style where you go through essentially ‘levels to get to the next level’. When gear is static, you can easily design a structured path for different play styles that the player can go along. Titanforging isn’t the main culprit against this (that’s more to do with over saturating gearing, bad pacing with increases and overzealous catchup mechanics).
But it can effect it, as WF is pretty common and TF has lead to some weird instances where you can get something that shouldn’t be given out for that task. In BRF we’d get mythic caches for heroic boss kills, and it was silly back then. This is closer to the effort = reward structure that is pretty common in design, yet for some reason people try and claim elitism.
Closer, but not quite. A fun part of RPGs is building your character with some control. Ion likes to parrot that ‘RNG has always been a part of WoW’, and while that is true to a degree by ignoring the saturation of it is incredibly disingenuous. Again, its not solely WF/TF that’s to blame, as their desire to streamline and prune have hurt this aspect in the hopes of mass appeal and their obsession with eSports… but it still has an effect that due to the system all being random with forging aspects, gear has become rather dull, temporary and not something you can really work towards. Granted as the game’s moved away from traditional aspects of the genre its picked up a lot of people that may not be that into RPG aspects, as we already know that people complain about the MMO aspects back when the game more closely resembled an MMORPG.
TL;DR
Forging is a piece of a much larger problem.
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Personally I like to get a piece of gear and know it’s the best I can get for the highest difficulty I want to push.
If I grind the crap out of siege for that trinket on mythic 10, and get it at 400 version of it. Then I can be done with that and move onto my next piece of gear I want to chase. I don’t care about LFR peeps getting a crazy Titan forge because chances are I will never run into these people in my raids (guild runs) or my mythic + runs (IO has made it pretty difficult to fake being good at mythic +)
Let them have their crazy gear for the content they feel comfortable pushing. I just like feeling like I got the best piece I can for a teir, not a constant what if it Titan forges though
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Foremost we must define Grinding.
Grinding is best defined as the following: Repetition you despise.
Do you consider the heydays of your own personal PVP experience to be a “grind” even though you did the same thing over and over again? Some people confuse grinding with repetition in content. The problem with defining Grinding as repetition is that goes against what gaming even is in the first place. Gaming IS repetition. You repeatedly do the same thing over and over again, as you progress. That is what BFA is missing. The progression part. Yeah we always progress but progression is why we grind. When there is never ending progression it makes us despise it even more. Hence the true sense of “grind” comes to play. You don’t call a “grind” by that term in the first place if you enjoy it. Gaming is a “grind” if you define it as repetition in gameplay. I would say Grinding is repetition you despise.
When you play any game you’re doing some form of gameplay over and over again. Progression is what makes it worthwhile and sometimes not. Games like CSGO represent that but everyone likes to open a new gun case. ![:wink:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/wink.png?v=6" ":wink:")
The problem is that when the repetitive content becomes agonizing. BFA is considered grindy to so many people because the content is something they despise to run. I myself enjoy BFA. Others not so much. Its all preference but I’m not too happy with it. I can’t deny i’m displeased with the current game.
Gameplay at the end of the day is doing the same thing over and over again and enjoying it. Thats what we do. When you pvp, you’re doing the same thing over and over again. Its fun. Its not a grind.
Right now Titanforging is most likely the expression of that hate we have for the new grind normality in the game. Meaning we hate it.
In between content patches we should be able to achieve a lot more while the repetition itself should become less of a grind. So we enjoy it more.
Right now the only reason you grind… is so you can grind easier. Thats not fun.
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Grinding doesn’t inherently mean you dislike it. Just means “working hard” at something, typically repeatedly.
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Depending on the type of game and gamer you are, I would say it has different meanings. I agree with you from my own background.
Gamers who enjoy FPS’s more would use that term differently.
The point I was trying to make was not to debate the terminology but to bring light to why we are displeased with BFA in general.
Grinding aside, we dislike the content. From my own opinion and what I’ve witnessed in game, a lot of people don’t feel its very rewarding or worthwhile right now.
Because if someone has a nice thing that they didn’t sweat blood through their eyeballs for, it makes me feel less good about my nice stuff that I didn’t sweat through my eyeballs for either, I actually also got lucky with a Titanforge, but when it happens to me it was earned! With my bootstraps!
Bootstraaaaaaaaps!
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The one you are missing from my point of view is that it increase the chance the gear you get from pushing into more difficult content will not be an upgrade… One of my alts has a 410 cloak that forged from a warfront … so unless I get lucky with another forge that means I have to start pushing really high keys or mythic raids to try to farm something better.
Now you might say “but Djarro, that just means you don’t have to farm that slot…”
And that’s true, unless I want something with different secondaries. Then it creates more work to get a piece where the primary and secondaries both improve over the TF piece. & personally I think getting a 385 piece that sims better than 410 because of secondaries feels bad too… but thats another topic.
Personally, while it feels good to get the rare TF piece - its much more common, and imo feels much worse, to put in the effort to improving my play and pushing more challenges and then not get an upgrade when an item for that slot drops.
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I mean, unpopular opinion, I don’t dislike bfa because I don’t enjoy it. I hate the reforging system, and I hate how much was taken out from Legion, again. The constant complaint is removing what the previous expansion added, in an attempt to form each expansion’s individuality. The problem is, there’s only so many unique ideas, and eventually the new things added are just watered down versions of what was had before.
I don’t dislike IEs or warfronts, I don’t hate BFA m+ or the raids, everything in proportion.
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Essentially, it kinda makes your character progression more luck than effort.
There was always RNG in terms of what dropped, but now you not only have to have the item drop, but it has to forge a socket or ilvl for it to matter.
Sockets shouldn’t even be RNG, imo.
Coupled with the absolute gutting of professions and a total gear reset every 3-4 months, and it just makes for a very unsatisfying system.
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Improving your ilvl and stats should come from improving yourself as a player. Not winning the lottery.
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Wuzeh 2020. Make Wow Great Again.
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10chars
Because it’s just timegating to make you play non stop and never “perfect” your char.
I would define “grinding” as doing content you wouldn’t otherwise be doing to reach some goal, that in itself may only be peripherally related to that content.
There’s 3 reasons people get upset by wtforging.
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It upsets the orderly sense of progression they experienced in earlier expansions. They often forget the large amount of randomness that has always been in the game.
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People whose self-worth depends on having better gear than other lesser mortals are upset that other people are getting gear they don’t deserve.
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People who are really bad at math have imaginations that run wild. They greatly overestimate the extent to which players doing casual content get extremely high ilvl titanforged, then base their demands on these imaginary numbers.