I'm actually now more hyped than ever about the MM Hunter changes

[Rokk-icecrown]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Sad, but true, I just think they they might be missing one part of the sniper formula: the guardian/partner of the sniper that keeps people from sneaking up on them.

Would love for them to keep something like this in the game, there are plenty of genuine people like you who just want to keep that bond.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Rokk-icecrown

there are plenty of genuine people like you who just want to keep that bond.

and I’d say we number of us is quite high, comparatively to others. Thing is a lot are saying balancing MM to enable us to keep the bond and keeping the changes can’t be done.

As Luigi in the live action SMB movie (the one that was not all that popular) said though: nothing is impossible, unlikely, improbable but never impossible.

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

@Boomdoggle-zuljin

@Korrsica-moon-guard

What is immersive for some isn’t immersive for other, MM has no identity other than just worse BM right now. If it’s pets you want BM and SV is right there, and it’s not a failure to understand it’s just that if it were to come between my enjoyment of the game and someone else’s I am always going to pick mine.

So you’re an employee

@Boomdoggle-zuljin

it’s all part of your plan that involved gutting MM until few played it and then claiming this was a “fix” that the game needed?

Wait until you realize mm is one of the few specs that blizz has been mostly hands off with and hasn’t really given it a lot of class identity like bm and surv.

Heck once they removed all the abilities mm shared with surv and bm, it has less buttons than bm. Which has been a forum meme for eons because of its simplicity.

So be disingenuous to random people on the forums or admit that mm needs serious work. Oh and opinions aren’t allowed unless they lines up with yours.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

and I’d say we number of us is quite high, comparatively to others.

I wish y’all would stick to how you would like the spec to play vs throw out unprovable numbers to argue your point of popularity.

[Marisia-defias-pillager]

@Quivermethis-rexxar

Wait until you realize mm is one of the few specs that blizz has been mostly hands off with and hasn’t really given it a lot of class identity like bm and surv.

Heck once they removed all the abilities mm shared with surv and bm, it has less buttons than bm. Which has been a forum meme for eons because of its simplicity.

this is why I theorize that many of these posters don’t even know their own specs out of the basic main buttons to press, guarantee a lot of them don’t even know something like that.

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

It’s pretty apparent that they don’t when most of the complaints are about the pet being removed and not the much needed rework mm actually needs.

Like if you actually look at your mm hotbar. The amount of holes is incredible. I think I have maybe 2 holes in my bm hotbar? And I even fill those with trinkets.
I can’t do that with mm.

[Mkali-frostwolf]

Whoooooosh?

They’re being sarcastic about “all hunters united against the changes.”

[Mkali-frostwolf]

And along with Lust, they can add Intimidation and Grievous Wounds and the Trigger Finger buff to Lone Wolf too while they’re at it. Making LW MM perform vastly better than MM having a pet.

…Wait, why would they want a pet again? To gimp themselves?

[Hocuspawkiss-moon-guard]

MM changes are still quite awful unless they revert all the eagle/pet changes honestly. The eagle stuff sounds awful.

[Shadybolt-thrall]

@Skizzic-proudmoore

The fact that we are even having this debate is kinda proof of that

The existence of flat earthers doesn’t make the earth more flat. No matter however much they want to “discuss” the shape of the earth.

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There isn’t a debate. Folks who play MM hunters are excited to have more talents, toys, and mechanics. Whereas a small subset of folks who view themselves as hunters first and foremost get upset when they are told that MM’s identity has been effectively petless for about a decade (both in theme and gameplay), and that there’s two other specializations that utilizes pets as part of their identity.

That’s all there is to it, and that’s not debatable.

[Mkali-frostwolf]

@Shadybolt-thrall

The existence of flat earthers doesn’t make the earth more flat. No matter however much they want to “discuss” the shape of the earth.

Thank you. This idea that there is vocal opposition therefore the opposition is inherently meritorious is just laughable.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Quivermethis-rexxar

I wish y’all would stick to how you would like the spec to play vs throw out unprovable numbers to argue your point of popularity.

I wish that ones like you would read and such before posting, maybe you would have realized what I was referring to was the number of us that want to keep the bond, in any fashion, was comparatively high. I threw out no numbers that could or could not be proven.

As far as how I want the spec to play? I have already gone over that repeatedly and jsut been told to roll BM, which I hate due to its reliance on the pet, survival which is not ranged, etc.

@Shadybolt-thrall

There isn’t a debate.

You are tight, there is not a debate: ones who use all tools of the class, including pet, see the changes and like them for x content but are bringing up concerns abotu y content are being told by trolls and fools that are not able to emphsize with others.

There is not a debate because one side is willing to discuss but the other is trying to shut down the debate by providing answers that solve no issue, or are too easily countered:

If you want a pet, roll BM
I hate BM, too much reliance on pet
then roll survival
I want to be ranged
then roll another class
I have toons of all classes, each one I have my own view for

But once again, for me, I don’t care if they make the pet purely vestigial, and I would only be using it as a companion and fetcher, I don’t care if they make it that 3rd aspect of the sniper fantasy (the one that keeps people from sneaking up on the sniper), as one other stated, I jsut want to keep the bond with my pet in some way while playing MM

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

I wish that ones like you would read and such before posting, maybe you would have realized what I was referring to was the number of us that want to keep the bond, in any fashion, was comparatively high. I threw out no numbers that could or could not be proven.

“Comparatively high” = greater than.
You are assigning a value without numbers.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

As far as how I want the spec to play? I have already gone over that repeatedly and jsut been told to roll BM, which I hate due to its reliance on the pet, survival which is not ranged, etc.

Okay? What other choice do you have though?

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Quivermethis-rexxar

Okay? What other choice do you have though?

The one that is getting disregarded by those that think any feedback that they don’t like is complaining. Posting ideas and options to enable MM to keep the pet, in ANY fashion, and preparing to adapt to the changes while we wait and see the future changes for the eagle.

@Quivermethis-rexxar

“Comparatively high” = greater than.

Ah, I see where you are coming from, but keep in mind, with comparatively, it could break down the ones that want to keep the pet into sub groups. Like I did not mean to imply that those that want to keep the pet is greater then those that don’t as much as those that want to keep the bond is likely higher then those that want to keep the pet for any other reason.

[Rawrloll-sulfuras]

@Shadybolt-thrall

There isn’t a debate. Folks who play MM hunters are excited to have more talents, toys, and mechanics. Whereas a small subset of folks who view themselves as hunters first and foremost get upset when they are told that MM’s identity has been effectively petless for about a decade (both in theme and gameplay), and that there’s two other specializations that utilizes pets as part of their identity.

That’s all there is to it, and that’s not debatable.

Yea I’m not even going to lie, I view someone who wants to use a pet that they control as MM the same way I view someone that complains about having to move as Havoc DH. Like they are somehow playing a spec which has a design they adamantly don’t like and somehow they don’t even see it.

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

The one that is getting disregarded by those that think any feedback that they don’t like is complaining. Posting ideas and options to enable MM to keep the pet, in ANY fashion, and preparing to adapt to the changes while we wait and see the future changes for the eagle.

I wasn’t disregarding your feedback. I was merely saying what other choice do you have going forward in the foreseeable future?

Your only choices right now for pets will be bm or surv. You can continue to post feedback about this, but this change will be live for at minimum, 6 months. Big changes to specs usually last at least the entire season, if not the rest of the xpac. And they’ll make another major change going into midnight.

That’s why I said, “what other choice do you have?” - If you want to play with your pets, it’s going to be 1 of those 2 specs regardless of feedback.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Ah, I see where you are coming from, but keep in mind, with comparatively, it could break down the ones that want to keep the pet into sub groups. Like I did not mean to imply that those that want to keep the pet is greater then those that don’t as much as those that want to keep the bond is likely higher then those that want to keep the pet for any other reason

It’s just better to not attempt to measure the immeasurable. Especially if you are trying to argue for something, it tends to muddy the water so to speak. Then it’s also easy to tangent into “SOURCE?!”

[Shadybolt-thrall]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

There is not a debate because one side is willing to discuss […]

Again, no matter however much you want to discuss the shape of the earth - it doesn’t change.

The objective reality and truth of the matter is that MM haven’t been playing with their pets for a decade, and the OVERWHELMING consensus is that you pick MM if you want to play a hunter but don’t want a pet. This has been true for the past 10 years at least.

That’s the objective truth of the matter, and the upcoming changes reflect what MM hunters want.

@Antiman-bloodhoof

[…] being told by trolls and fools that are not able to emphsize with others.

You have talked on this subject matter before. The only ones unable to emphasize with other people are folks who repeatedly ignore that the overwhelming consensus from MM hunters is “I don’t want a pet.” So they are making that change whilst adding mechanics and gameplay aspects that enhance the gameplay as opposed to detract from it.

The only trolls in regards to this topic are ya’ll who keep refusing to acknowledge such basic things such as this. All ya’ll want to do is, effectively, “debate the shape of the earth” because you dislike the objective truth to its shape.

This is why there isn’t a debate, because we don’t even know how the thing is going to be implemented yet. Meaning that there is nothing to debate, and all one can do is to acknowledge the objective reality of that matter - which is what I have been doing, and most other MM hunters. You aren’t doing that though, so there’s nothing to emphasize with you.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Quivermethis-rexxar

You can continue to post feedback about this, but this change will be live for at minimum, 6 months.

I think the hope for providing feedback know will at least bring out the other changes, like the glyph that will change toe look of the eagle, to come sooner. As well as, sicne it is not on the PTR yet, there is a chance, however slim, that some PTR builds will at least make the pet a visual, if inactive, aspect of the hunter.

@Shadybolt-thrall

The objective reality and truth of the matter is that MM haven’t been playing with their pets for a decade, and the OVERWHELMING consensus is that you pick MM if you want to play a hunter but don’t want a pet. This has been true for the past 10 years at least.

Ahem, this is little but conjecture to ones like me, and as another put it:

@Quivermethis-rexxar

Then it’s also easy to tangent into “SOURCE?!”

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Ahem, this is little but conjecture to ones like me, and as another put it:

While there aren’t numbers to prove one way or another, there are many examples that show one is more popular than the other. I just didn’t want to get into it

[Shadybolt-thrall]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Ahem, this is little but conjecture to ones like me, and as another put it:

@Quivermethis-rexxar

Then it’s also easy to tangent into “SOURCE?!”

Blizz's own words about Hunters

If you have one person out of 100 people doing something, you can say “one in 100 people does X.” Lingustically speaking though, we just say “no one is doing X.” Of course, context matters. The issue here is that we don’t have hard data to support any claims, so we have to go with deductive data to support our claims… and all of that points towards no one even want to use pets as MM as a default. So no, you are still disingenuous because everyone in PvE settings use Lone Wolf as MM. But sin…

The source is “I have told you this, and others, before but you disliked it so you ignored it.” You even commented in the same thread.

Literal 10 years worth of history is the source.

@Quivermethis-rexxar

While there aren’t numbers to prove one way or another […]

There actually is. Because the entire reason why Lone Wolf is the default now’a’days is because back during Warlords, there was A LOT of pressure on Blizzard to making the talent viable in raids (since M+ didn’t exist yet).

The desire of having a petless hunter class and it being MM was extremely popular, which is why folks used Lone Wolf even prior to it being a good option for PvE was the most common talent choice back then. Even in high-end raiding, because folks just didn’t want a pet and deal with the AI. They wanted to to play MM, and not have a random pet running around the place.

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Lone Wolf’s existence and buffs is the literal proof as to why MM was desired to be a petless specialization. So the way to determine this is to go back and look at logs, forum posts, guides, and more from Warlords of Draenor and look at the number of people using Lone Wolf - despite it not being numerically better.

Even back then, with as numbers-driven as we are as players, folks used it as the default when playing MM.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

and I respect that, the issue is one can claim it is what MM hunters want, but we also have to recognize what groups those MM hunters are in. Like I want the changes, as they are, so I can play my hunter in raids and M+ without needing to worry about having a pet to provide lust. We also have to give a nod to those that want to go petless, but take the stance of “I want x, byt I don’t want to take y from other players”