These two characters in WoW have these traits in common in their most recent expacs;
They and views on them range from anti-hero to villain.
They both got an expansion where they have a pivotal role in a cosmic conflict.
Said expansion sought to both prop them up AND push them back to a previous characterization.
Swathes of prior lore were retconned to make them look good/better/less bad.
Long-running characters are used or dumbed down to shill them (eg; Khadgar, Velen and Turalyon for one, Uther, Anduin and Jaina for another).
Both get scenes where they smugly argue with another major character.
Both have a cinematic where another character is reduced to a jobber for them.
Both end their expansion being put on ice with the possibility of their return kept open.
Both characters had similar story elements in Shadowlands and Legion respectively. And yet the story beats done with Illidan were mostly well-received, while the same story beats for Sylvanas werenât.
I think his development and partway redemption in Legion were easier to swallow because he wasnât coming off a fifteen-year tenure as a faction leader, and the necessary retcons to sell that arc were much less egregious than those surrounding Sylvanas.
Gonna knock out a few reasons Iâve seen why. And disclaimer, Iâm not saying all of these reasons apply to everybody who hates Sylvanas.
But to get the biggest one out of the way, Sylvanas is a woman. Character traits that seem edgy, cool, or badass on a male character are often more negatively received by a larger portion of the male consumer base if the same traits come from a female character. Sheâs not alone in this, either; Jaina and Tyrande get it from time to time as well.
Unlike Illidan, Sylvanasâs writing has impacted other player races during WoWâs life time. Nobody REALLY cares what Illidan was doing to the Broken or the Magâhar orcs on Outland because nobody plays as one. His crimes are more distant and disconnected there. But Sylvanas was the dedicated horde-side bad guy for not only Lordaeron Deus Vult fans, but worgen and later night elf fans as well. Racial capitals have been assaulted multiple times throughout WoWâs history but this is the only racial leader that actually wiped two right off the map, and that makes things personal.
Illidan was largely praised (if mocked a bit for the edgy delivery) for killing Xeâra because she sucked. She sucked hard. Almost nobody liked her. While we can see that the game was most likely going for an unreliable narrator story for her introduction, at the time it was believed to be ridiculous contradictions to Illidanâs character that were never needed for his fans to like him anyway. Watching Illidan blow her up was cathartic. On the other hand, Sylvanas (a character people were tired of by now) winning a fight against Bolvar felt like pandering to many people, and actively ticked off Bolvar fans, because Bolvar hadnât had the chance to actually be used in his lich king position before he lost to her. Even if metaphorically, Sylvanas overpowering a lich king should have been a rewarding moment for her character, it felt unearned because of that.
Itâs pretty well-known that The Burning Crusade had some partial character assassination issues with both Illidan and Kaelâthas - the devs were pretty open about it back then - because nobody expected WoW to be a runaway hit and the devs were throwing spaghetti at the wall with recognizable names as bosses. In comparison, Sylvanas struggled because the game played with her âwill she / wonât sheâ dark side for way too long, providing more benefit-of-the-doubt for when her characterization was betrayed for the sake of naked and inconsistently-aimed villainy. The devs have been incredibly hush-hush and themselves contradictory about their goals and issues with the story, and almost everything we know about her writing problems have come from insider leaks. So by the time the game finally tried to swerve Sylvanas into a new direction, it was after she crossed both a moral and immersive event horizon for the players who largely cashed out and no longer had any interest in what her âwait and seeâ would be.
Legion was pretty well-received in general, whereas Shadowlands as a whole sucked. People might be quick to say that the worst parts of SL were the Sylvanas bits, but honestly you could remove her and SL would barely be any better. Nobody respected Zovaal as a character to begin with, while Sargeras with the Burning Legion was the main villain of the entire franchise. I think that helped to prop up Illidanâs reception that much more, and Shadowlands only dragged down Sylvanas further in the gameâs attempts to salvage her.
The only thing Iâd add is something that you kind of touched on:
Illidan had been officially dead for several years of real time, and people were still upset about how that had happened. They missed him and wanted to see his character assassination fixed. Whereas Sylvanas had been around that whole time, doing things that ticked off fans of playable races; they were anxious to see her leave.
Thatâs what it boils down to. Counselor Troi for instance wasnât allowed to have intelligence until the cleavage went into hiding. And sheâs still unfairly blamed for crashing the Enterprise in âGenerationsâ in a way no male in her spot would have been.
And itâs not always gender related⌠Ser Brienne of Tarth is one of the most popular characters on Games of Thrones Hardly anyone has a disparaging word for her⌠sheâs also the most flatchested woman in fantasy. But put boobs on someone and they are judged by completely different standards. And Sylvannas has⌠deep cups.
I canât stand either Sylvanasâ recent characterization or almost all of Illidanâs characterization. Iâd say one of the main reasons Illidan isnât as hated is because he wasnât a faction leader.
Honestly, Sarmâs whole post pretty much sums it up perfectly but I always think back and wonder if Sylvanasâ deal with the jailer had been made WITHOUT her becoming Warchief, what wouldâve been the outcome? Would she be as polarizing?
The Horde would have probably balked at the idea of following her into the War of Thorns and even moreso when she ordered the Burning of Teldrassil had she not been Warchief. Her actions wouldâve been her own, and not laid at the feet of the Horde to shoulder the blame.
Illidan widely differs in this regard because he is largely faction agnostic, his characterization although a bit eye-rolly in itâs edge-lordliness has never been directly impacting to us as players in the long term. We have always been there to follow him in his choices as onlookers rather than being directly involved as we have been with Sylvanas and I think this is the biggest shift in how we as players perceive the two different characters.
Not to mention, Blizzard committed full character assassination on Sylvanas in her namesake novel when depicting her deal with the Jailer at the end. A character whose entire basis of existence was fundamentally ingrained in autonomy just threw that out the window for âReasonsâ˘â
Illidanâs crimes are far more divorced from mainstream lore, whereas Sylvannas had horde players commit an act of genocide for her. Sylvannas being evil was presented to us in-game. Illidanâs actions are almost entirely divorced from WoW, or dependent on things that were retconned so long ago, most people forgot.
Just for full context, thereâs a few specific things that earned Illidan the title of âbetrayerâ in the original telling of events from the Warcraft 3 Manual:
Illidan did not really even play the Highborne in the OG lore. He warned them about the Resistances plan to attack the city, and took vials from the well during the chaos.
Illidan was severely addicted to magic, and this itself was why he betrayed them, in addition to being angry that Tyrande didnât love him. He left for selfish reasons, but as mentioned above, he didnât help the resistance after leaving in the OG timeline when all this lore about âThe Betrayerâ was written.
He did not consult anyone when making the second well. He essentially just thrusted it upon the civilization. This doesnât seem as bad in new lore, because the corruptive aspects of arcane magic is downplayed to the point where your common player thinks itâs only a problem for elves. It was deeply corruptive and attracted demons actively- even in Cata, the Shenâdralar say using it can tear open rifts in the nether for their influence to reach the physical world. It was not a tool of science- it was a weapon that posed an inherent threat to civilization.
In the WotA version, he did turn tail and assist the Resistance after infiltrating the palace. But he then murdered people who tried to stop him from making the second well, which nearly included Jerod Shadowsong, who even wild gods respected enough to heed the commands of in a battlefield.
But none of these stories were remotely recent in relation to Legion, which released in 2016, over a decade divorced even from the novel retelling. Even burning crusade, with all his messed up actions there, was 9 years prior. Most people simply didnât remember or care. Illidanâs worst things were unknown to your average player, or ignored because nerds like to sympathize with the edgy guy who couldnât get the hot girl GF.
Sylvannas did everything directly in front of us in far more recent history, and thats why any idea of redeeming her is so absurd. It also doesnât help that they framed her against Arthas for this, neglecting that Arthas def had far more noble intentions than her until he died in wc3 and became a DK- but it should be noted that one of the only text sprawls in Wc3 existed specifically to say that Arthas, while wandering the frozen wastes, went insane in hearing Nerâzhuls whispers. He was driven to that point by desperation to save his people, then driven insane by the consequences of his own actions, but still warped into believing her was protecting the world. She did things worse than Arthas, but doesnât seem capable of admitting in-game, nor do the writers seem willing to admit out of game, that she was a far worse person in SL than Arthas ever was.
I love how everyone likes to play pretendy fun time games and imply that the entire Horde should not hate her for betraying them in every conceivable way.
Pretty much. Illidans motives always linked to the Legion and how he was an frenemy to them. Kilâjaeden even says this in WC3: TFT when they made their bargain. However since they had a common enemy at the time (Nerâzhul, The Lich King) they were able to look past their past for the time being. KJ even gave Illidan another chance to destroy the Lich King.
However his relationship changed from frenemy to full on enemy later on. Mainly thanks to things like the WotA trilogy (where he only swapped sides to be a double agent) and the Illidan novel. Which makes Kilâjaedens line, âYou have been both friend and foe to the Legionâ kinda weird.
Sylvanas on the other hand got deceived by a guy called THE JAILER who wanted to bring âfreedomâ to everyone by killing them, torturing them until nothing was left and using what remained as soldiers against their will.
Honestly I would compare Sylvanas to Khamsin and Zovaal to Mistral from the MGR:R Bladewolf DLC. Khamsin did believe what they were doing was âbringing freedomâ but in truth they werenât.
I feel like thereâs a few additional differences.
First off, Illidanâs story happened before Sylvanasâ, so thereâs a simple source of difference in that peopleâs patience for this kind of plot could have been already spent by Illidan and thus have less/none left over for Sylvanas.
One other slight tonal difference to me is that Illidanâs story, fangirly as it was, felt more like the story was saying âwork with this guy, even though heâs done terrible things in the name of fighting the Legion (and staying alive. And benefitting himself. Not necessarily in that order)â; while Sylvanasâ story had more tones of âAww, câmon, look how tormented she is (Are you over that teensy little genocide and villainbatting yet? No? Okay, weâll make another cinematic for her. How about now?)â
As in, in general, I feel like the story was much more supportive of the characters who disagreed with or disliked Illidan, treating their distrust and anger as just as reasonable as trust and not implying those characters were in the wrong and thus had to change. Whereas, in Sylvanasâ story, it felt more like any character who disagreed or disliked Sylvanas was presented more in a âlook at how this person is so full of anger and hate that needs to be let goâ style.
This also is pretty big too tbh. Illidanâs didnt necessarily even address his messed up his prior actions were, but it only really tricks you by omission if you donât already know who he really is and what heâs done. Though I do think as a result of not showing why they were justified, most people kind of hate Malfurion, Tyrande etc for it, because they dont know their reasons for doing any of the things that got him imprisoned compared to Illidanâs motivation.
But Illidan only harmed a non player race in TBC, which was still fairly early in the setting for a lot of people, whereas Sylvannas committed genocide on a popular player race on screen.
Coming from enjoying WC3 Sylvanas, BC Sylvanas, Wrath Sylvanas, Cata Sylvanas and even some aspects of Legion Sylvanas, BFA and Shadowlands Sylvanas was somehow both utterly insufferable and completely uncompelling.
Goldenâs interquel novels, as usual, do nothing but wallpaper over her older, cooler stories to make her more pathetic and less competent.
I think for me, this is the most disappointing part of Sylvanasâ characterization. She had always been depicted in previous iterations as clever, cunning, suspicious and distrustful. Although her motives were almost always self or Forsaken-serving, they always made sense for her characterâs themes.
From BfA to the end of Shadowlands, they took her in the weirdest 180 of erratic behavior that seemed like it was going to lead somewhere in a means to a greater end. Everyone was waiting to see why she was spiraling so erratically and I remember people even speculating that maybe Teldrassil was void corrupted all along, which is why she burned it.
Heck, even I was expecting some grand reveal at the end of the Sylvanas novel, hoping against hope that she had been playing the Jailer all along in some grand revenge plot since she wasnât able to get the Arthas kill, so she went to his boss.
Alas, she was somehow duped with a promise of âUnmaking Realityâ (Whatever the hell that means?) and some weird Lava Eel vision that still makes me snort in embarrassment.
I think its funny that someone called âthe Deceiverâ got deceived by Illidan and the Dreadlords.
To Sylvanas the whole unmaking reality thing was making reality anew with everyone having true freewill. However I canât recall if her belief of no one truly being free was ever explained.
And yeah, the Lava Eel was something. Though Iâm more bothered that the incredibly suspicious Sylvanas just believing that families are never united in the afterlife, which per the Night Fae campaign, we know is untrue.
Illidans story is shorter (in terms of exposure) and has been limited to (basically) two wow expansions. Heâs had less game exposure and less opportunity to generate overexposure and hostility from players. Sylvanas was a major component of BfA and Shadowlands (both of which dragged on longer than expected and werenât well received - even beyond her involvement) making it a lot of exposure and tying her to unenjoyable experiences.
Sylvanas has been involved in a number of events across expansions as a racial leader. Unfortunately that means sheâs had plenty of opportunities to have her personality fit the narrative and not the other way around. Thatâs not to say Illidan has been portrayed consistently (his BC portrayal wasnât consistent with Warcraft and Legion wasnât consistent with BC), but a decade of separation makes it less jarring. Sylvanas literally had an inner monologue in a book that contrasted with her own goals. Honestly, if they had made it so that every time Sylvanas died, one of the Valâkyr actually came from the Maw to take control of her body it wouldâve made sense. I still donât understand why the Valâkyr even had to be sacrificed when she died but whatever. Reasons. Even fans of Sylvanas hated the story because it basically blew what little consistency the character had.
While Illidanâs eyeblast was a bit edgy most folks didnât really have a strong attachment to that particular chandelier. Our rapport with Akama (at the time of Black Temple) wasnât really much. Sylvanasâ most recent victims were Anduin (Iâm not a fan but he has some I guess), betraying the PC (at least twice), Saurfang, oh and an entire tree of civilians. Those happened since Legion. We can look at Illidans prior transgressions and while I understand there is no statute of limitations on murder, it feels like when youâre in the thousands of years folks consider it.
Sylvanasâ involvement from Vanilla onward meant she had plenty of opportunities to upset players. Whether it was raising more undead, fighting the Worgen, or just the fact that she became war chief due to Volâjin dying. It meant many players already had strong negative feelings for the character. Illidan didnât generate that many enemies.
Without piling too much on the âBfA and SL didnât make much senseâ train - yeah they didnât make much sense.
I hate arguing the âsheâs a womanâ part. Itâs probably true for some folks, her roles didnât fit the traditional female role of villainy (poisoning) and instead outright fighting and winning. But I donât want to speculate on how many folks that applies to. I like to believe itâs not many, but i donât know for certain.
Basically, the deck was stacked against her already. She had many folks who already disliked her. A jarring full heel turn in the prior expac offended her fans. And the resolution didnât seem to appease anyone - she wasnât fully herself, she was also stupid - and happened in an expansion that was generally not enjoyable gameplay wise (and was a giant incoherent illogical mess).
Probably because Illidan was still a hero/antihero for the entirety of Legion.
Sylvanas was a barely disguised villain from 8.0 on to 9.2. People either didnât like what she did or didnât like that Blizzard made her a villain.
A hero being made more heroic by others being dumb is cheesy but acceptable.
A villain being more villainous by heroes being dumb is stupid and unacceptable.