If you nerf Marksmanship Hunters because of PvP

If you add anything to the mix its a 1v2 and you should lose that significantly more than you dont. You cant even add that to the argument. Mages have their barriers that absorb damage, locks have higher than normal health with lock rocks and other ways to mitigate damage, and priests have shields etc. I think the lesson to be learned is dont walk around without some sort of barrier around you as a clothie or you will die.

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I have to assume by your naivete that you only play hunter.
Let me spell out the average arena for a non-stealthie for you right now, let’s say I’m playing WW/RSham, which by any metric should be a solid arena comp, and has been at least good enough for skirmishes since WW existed. Honestly sub in whatever class you want, it won’t make a difference. I’m going against MM with either a feral, rogue, or MM.
I sit at a pillar waiting for eyes to spawn or for the stealth opener. Traditionally, to win this I need to juke the initial CC and survive the opener with defensive CDs. If my shaman is stunned, he trinkets, drops big CDs and we peel. That is literally not possible right now. There is no initial CC. There is two out-of-stealth double tap Aimed Shots that delete you. It doesn’t matter if a warlock has god damn lock rocks, you are dead. That isn’t a 1v2, that is literally the typical experience in arenas right now.

I am not saying this as a salty victim, I’m playing MM in retail. And yes, it’s possible to lose with a poorly timed stealth opener or getting sapped out of Camo, but things as they stand are not fun for anyone but the stealthies.

Um, it absolutely has to do with gear. Go play a slightly undergeared MM in BGs, you will rarely ever drop someone with that double tap combo. You need Berserker or Salt water potions to do that.

MM is a one trick degenerate PVP spec, relying on opening burst to kill you. They flop when focused and are easy to turn the fight around on.

MM get a lot of attention by sitting back and stomping on low geared or outnumbered players. The range execute+burst allows them to move up charts in random BGs. As soon as the fight gets tough and their opponents start using LoS and defensive well, MM flops.

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Obviously the MM needs gear to damage, the earlier point was that MM only works against undergeared opponents, which is false. MM can burst against 180 ilvl opponents just fine.
And are you seriously suggesting LoS?

It’s literally a 2.5 second cast. If you don’t know how to pillar hump then you don’t even begin to understand how to PvP.

You can just run circles around a pillar and they aren’t getting it off.

What clothy are you double tapping for 24k (minimum) damage in an arena? Heck, in a BG? That is 100% a gear difference and doubtful they are using their passive mitigation shields.

I have ~161 gear on my hunter presently, and I don’t double tap ANYTHING in a global. The best crits I have seen were back to back 6500s, but that was less than 50% of the Locks HP. As my gear improves, so does the gear of my opponents. Are you telling me the % gain for 19ilvls is equivalent to 2x the damage, even with the natural increases to my target’s vers? The math just doesn’t support that. Nuking undergeared PvE clothies in PvP isn’t a strong argument to nerf MM.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m fine with nerfing opening burst. But only if MM gets buffs elsewhere to make them a viable spec.

I am not a top player, but it is my understanding and experience that the gimmick opening burst is the only thing MM has to remotely be competitive in PvP.

How is this different than the fact that DH and rog, or ret and warr or any 2 burst classes can literally delete people and there isnt anything you can do? You are on the wrong boards if you are here looking for sympathy after hunter has been dogsheet for the longest time. I suggest riding out the first few weeks and see what it looks like a month into the season.

I have not nor will I be bursted by a doubletap aimed shot. A double tap aimed shot doesnt even put me in killshot range when they both crit. People are blowing this out of proportion.


MM may burst 180 opponents but its for 60-75% of their life at most. I have gone double tap and at 183 Ilvl have yet to hit for more than 20k damage off 2 aimed shot crits.

There is some merit to the stealth adv argument as a demon hunter with eyes hunters give me 0 problems good sub rouges however can still jump me before I pull them out of stealth. For me in arena if its hunter + no stealth i always open demon eyes into gibing them out of stealth. If its double stealth like sub +mm its really tough as getting the rog out of stealth is not easy and while you try and trinket defenive cd/cc the rog off the hunter deletes you. In my experince hunters are not so bad for me as a dh. Rogues on the other hand seem to still be an issue due to the fact they can still get the jump by popping cds.

The main offender is the fact that we cast an Aimed Shot 80% of the way with double tap without breaking stealth. Just make double-tap remove stealth and it will go a long way into being able to sneak 100 > 0 a person.

At this point I’m convinced that the problem isn’t as much Double Tap as it is Resonating Arrow.

  • The 30% increased crit chance improves the chance of a double crit disproportionally (from 4% at a 20% base crit chance to 25% at 50%)
  • It adds 9% damage from the conduit (at 184)
  • It gives you another 350 mastery from Pelagos’ Combat Meditation to further increase the damage by another 10-15%

That adds up to a lot.

As a Night Fae, I don’t see anywhere close to those 12k aimed shot crits, and the double crits are rare.

And they need to fix the second shot benefiting from Careful Aim even if the first one took the target below 70%. Honestly, I wish they would remove the talent completely because of the balance implication it has for Aimed Shot, but that’s a discussion for another time.


@Snipesy Literally read any of my previous comments and notice that I never once say MM damage specifically is the problem. ALL damage is the problem. I do not want them to nerf MM in any significant way. Every class is overtuned right now.

The problem the above statement presents in arenas is that hunter’s damage is concentrated into a small window and castable from stealth. Same can be said about sub rogues, who I believe are actually deserving of a nerf. If you think there’s no issue with double stealth arena comps making PvP near unplayable for other classes I don’t know what else to say.

@Painlyss I didn’t mean to imply one aimed shot cast results in a kill. My aimed shot tooltip reads around 4300, let’s make it 4500 with trinket/racial buffs. Crit doubles that. Double tap doubles that. That means we’re sitting at 18k, from stealth, with one cast, not to mention the arcane shot easily hitting at least 2k that comes after it. On its own that’s strong, but manageable. Pop a wall, heal, etc. and MM will flop – I would actually say MM is pretty tame in duels, but try and say that’s okay in 2s when another stealthy can finish off the 5-6k remaining in the exact same window.

edit: Yes I know numbers in PvP might differ, in practice it doesn’t matter

I’m not going to pretend to know what hunters need or don’t need.
I’m not going to pretend to know how to balance them in PvE and PvP.

All I do know is -

I can silence a warlock - or counterplay the damage advantage.
I can pop a rogue in stealth that’s in melee range - or counterplay his stuns.
I can mass dispel a ret, or fear him off of me - or kite for a bit.
I can counter play if given enough time.

What I can’t do is react in less than second when a hunter pops from camo at range and kills me from 75% of my life when I WAS in full Versa gear ilvl 179.

I like this post because he sees the problem coming down the tubes.

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make double taps 2nd aimshot/rapid fire deal 50% less damage, and lower the cooldown to 30 seconds.

I’d like that imo and itd fix the only broken part about mm.


So basically you want an answer to every class and spec. Oh wait you do, DOT Classes HAVE ALWAYS HISTORICALLY REKT HUNTERS.

ALWAYS HAS AND ALWAYS WILL. You have got to be kidding me. Learn to Greater fade properly instead of popping G Fade, Disperse, and using all your instant CC.

You have such an EASY MODE CC system. You dont even aim, its just point and hit a button.

Only real cast ability is VT and Mind Blast.

Double tap right now isnt even that bad. If you’re dying in a double tap, youre extremely undergeared at this point, or playing your defensives and CDs like an idiot.

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You keep saying full verse gear but your profile shows 6% .

I stack it with trinkets and my verse damage is around 14%. 14% vs 6%. Its a no brainer.

also if you’re dying to a hunter or period anything but a sub rogue as a shadow priest L2P

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it’s mainly people getting oneshot in bgs from a hunter with berzerking.

they just aren’t used to marksman being good. the real class that’s broken is sub rogues

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