If you nerf Marksmanship Hunters because of PvP

Please only do it in PvP. As someone who has played this spec for eight years, I don’t think MM is right in PvP and I think it needs to be nerfed in PvP.

It’s damage profile is a powerful burst sequence followed by a weak filler sequence. I think that’s great in PvP when the burst sequence can chunk about 70% of the enemy’s health, but completely unfair when it takes them 100-0 before the burst sequence is even half-over.

With the Kyrian ability (which is not the only problem), we can now cast Double Tap, Resonating Arrow, LoS them, Aimed Shot, Arcane Shot, another Aimed Shot, and a Kill Shot, which usually results in the enemy dying. This is especially effective (and broken) against specs with low mobility and no hard immunity.

So I am asking that you nerf MM in PvP, and that you nerf MM ONLY in PvP. What I don’t want to happen is another big nerf that makes our burst sequence do as much damage as another spec’s regular sequence and our filler rotation do even less.

MM is bursty, and that is great! But our bursts are only balanced if they come with filler periods. We should have short periods where we do much more damage than other players as well as slightly longer periods where we do less damage to balance it out. This is a good thing to have in dungeons, raids, and while out in the open world because it gives our spec a unique (and fun) damage profile. But right now, with everybody’s dps:hp ratio being so high, this damage profile just doesn’t work in PvP: It is all burst and no filler, since enemies usually die during the burst.

So please, Nerf MM in PvP and ONLY in PvP. Marksmanship’s damage profile is really fun for me and I want it to stay that way- just not in a place where it can cause such dissatisfaction to others. I also don’t want it to be where it was for the majority of BfA because MM’s burst window was balanced with everyone else’s regular window.

Here are some potential remedies I’m thinking about:

  • Increasing the health pools significantly in PvP (I’m talking two/three times as much) without any changes to damage done. This would make fights longer and stop high-burst specs like MM Hunter and Sub Rogue from taking people 100-0 in one burst sequence. OR:
  • PvP-only change: Double tap is half as effective when used above 50% focus. PvP-only change: Arcane Shots do less damage - Some of my Arcane Shots with a precise shots proc are hitting almost as hard as my Aimed Shots even though they’re instant and cost less focus.
  • Camouflage is now broken when the hunter casts Double Tap or Trueshot to give people time to prepare for and respond to heavy hits.

I think that any of these solutions would make MM a much more fair opponent.

Again: Nerf in PvP ONLY. Please do not kill Marksmanship in PvE by trying to balance it in PvP. It’s in the middle of the pack right now for most PvE situations and I’d like it to stay that way.

Tl;dr: Marksmanship’s damage profile is unique and fun, but it doesn’t work right now in PvP. Some changes need to be made to MM in PvP ONLY so that the spec will make a fair opponent in PvP, but will not suffer in PvE like it did in BfA.


Damage overall is too high yeah, double tap is the only overtuned part of mm for pvp imo, and you got it mostly right on what to do. personally i think making the 2nd just do less damage against players and remove camo is enough. don’t nerf arcane shots, mm needs mobile damage too

As for overall damage being too high, a health pool increase would help yes, not 3x though we do NOT want people to live forever. maybe a 50-60% increase, fast paced meta is way more fun but i will admit it’s a bit much atm.


I’ve suggested making Double Tap extra hits unable to crit against players.

That would work too, you only get actually “globaled” if both double tap aimed shots crit, if they both dont crit i usually do around 40% of someones hp which is pretty reasonable compared to other classes

Doubletap isn’t the problem. It’s Careful Aim and stacking all your Cds.

Careful Aim could get a whole rework and I would be fine with that. Also solves the AOE numbers people cry about.

I will also add that when people have over 200 level versatility gear MM is going to have problems.


Careful aim is only 20% in pvp
double tap is the main offender currently, when double tap isn’t up the damage is perfectly reasonable

personally don’t like careful aim either though and would like a redesign but wont happen til 9.2 probly

I’d take maybe a 10% Aimed Shot damage nerf in exchange for the following: 30 focus, 2s cast time, 8s cooldown Aimed Shot. 1.5s cast Steady Shot. Rapid Fire giving 2x the focus it currently does. Trick Shots activating on 2 targets, and Flayed Shot proc chance doubled with Kill Shot and Trick Shots interaction. :slightly_smiling_face:

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And now we spend more time standing still hardcasting Aimed Shot.


This significantly reduces the utility of Volley. I’m still fine with the change, as I much prefer Lock and Load, but be aware of the implications.


And what do BM and SV get for their Flayed Shot and Kill Shot?

A powerful burst sequence followed by a weak filler… you just described Ret for the past 10 years. I have no idea why they would nerf it when ret has existed in that state for a decade.

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True but I think it would help our consistency instead of being all about the Trueshot window. That being said I think Trueshot would need to be a general haste buff, but for some spice, they could give it the special treatment of allowing Aimed Shot to be cast while moving during Trueshot.

I understand that but I was, during BfA, and still am, just dumbfounded that Trick Shots has the bizarre restriction of 3+ targets.

MM already has a talent that BM and Surv don’t get for Kill Shot and neither of them have Trick Shots either.

Because Ret can’t burst you from range with stealth ?


I don’t know if we’ll have problems, but I agree that once people start to optimize their gear, MM burst will flatten out a little.

MM is really good at sniping undergeared people, the way it occurs is startling, rogues can do the same thing, ret pallies as well, but you see them for that 2 second window ripping you down, MM can kill people and they never see the hunter.

It’s a perception problem more than a class problem.

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How often do you see someone get killed out of stealth? Thats rhetorical, its very low. Often times people see the hunter shadowmeld and then dont pop a defensive and die. If you live through that burst you more than likely are going to kill the hunter. Just keep your head on a swivel and use your noggin man. Stop taking the one aspect of something you dont like and act like it happens every time.

It happens a lot in BG’s… anyway I am not asking for nerf . Just make camo break at the beginning of the cast . So that a defensive can be used .

It’s on a CD and BG’s are not ever going to be tuned the way arena or rbg’s are. Wait and see how it affects rbg’s and/or arenas before asking for something.

It’s the same way in skirmishes. They are opening from camo and you are down 70 percent out of the gate . Especially bad in 2’s without a healer .

Don’t change damage at all, or not significantly.

Make Double Tap break stealth, and half the problem is fixed. There are a good couple seconds of setup to burst as MM and on most maps you’d need to be in the open. If your setup happens out of stealth most classes, even immobile ones, suddenly have ways to deal with you (e.g. grip).

The problem is less with hunter damage and more with stealth. Every class can burst down every other class because stats are out of wack. If you haven’t been killed in under a second by a feral, boomy, or rogue you haven’t been playing other classes either. Stealth classes are capitalizing on the fact that whoever engages first wins right now.

Fix stats, and you actually fix PvP.

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Its mainly just people in mediocre gear getting blapped by people in high level gear. I have almost 27k unbuffed and I have yet to be killed by a MM hunter using Double Tap. As gear level increases this becomes a non problem. Dont try to balance things less than 3 weeks into the expansion when people dont even have high level gear.


Uhhh, yeah. Sub Rogues. I can tell you with certainty that their entire kit is WAY worse to deal with than Hunters. The burst is absurd, they passively slow you, AND they can pop defensive CDs that make them essentially immune to damage, but it doesn’t slow their output (other than burning the GCDs - which are only 1 second.) Talk about a class needing a nerf in PvP. Holy eff.

I’m telling you, if they nerf Hunters in PvP RIGHT NOW, they will be very weak in about a month or two once everyone’s gear normalizes. Unless Blizz plans on fixing the myriad problems Hunters have in PvP, we’re gonna need to pump the brakes on any damage changes.


It does not have to do with gear. I have 178-180 shaman, warlock, hunter, and DK.
A crit + double tap Aimed Shot is enough to completely erase clothies. You commented above to use defensives, but there is often literally not enough reaction time to do so, and suggesting you pre-cast defensives like you did above is inane. Even if you do survive the single ability burst, adding a rogue, feral, or another hunter into the mix is more than enough to take out the 10-20% health you have left, making arenas unplayable.

I do not think Blizz should nuke MM damage, all that said, but it needs to be acknowledged that damage is too high all around.

I also agree with the guy above in that Sub Rogues are probably sleepers for the most unbalanced class, despite the flashiness of MM one-shots.

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