“Stop worrying about numbers in a game that has spend the last 15 years being entirely number based and will continue to be number based”.
The idea that people aren’t going to min-max purely because you can’t swap covenants is an absurdly optimistic one. All it will end up with is everyone being the best Covenant because it’s the best, and not because they actually like it.
woah bro!
didnt read any of that
At this point? The treadmill has been going since Classic.
Nope, there is no we here. I like the systems that in place. This has nothing to do with spite.
Nope, you not liking something doesn’t mean it’s broken. You not liking the idea of making a meaningful choice and them not changing it for you doesn’t mean they are ignoring player feedback.
It really isn’t, it’s the same handful of people spamming/parrotting some streamer in GD and Beta, some doing so with alts.
Yet, It is all opinion.
To be honest, I’m neither pro nor con. I just want to play the game. Its a fun thing where I can go for a few hours and forget I live in a world full of nasty viruses, insane world leaders and political agendas and just deal with fire breathing dragons, …insane world…never mind that analogy 
.
Anyway, I hope Blizzard comes to a solution that is a good compromise between the two sides, but I’m sure, like many others in the community, I just don’t care either way.
People opposed to pulling the ripcord are “a handful of people”, the covenant concerns thread on Beta has 4k+ likes, the majority of people giving feedback on the covenants are for pulling the ripcord. Unless you have any actual proof of your “silent majority” even existing, I suggest you stop making false claims.
Remember, we the players have asked for all the things that players in general think is bad about retail, LFD, LFR, too casual friendly, not casual friendly enough, flying… the list goes on and on. Blizzard listened to the players and we got this current amalgamation of crap on top of crap that has eroded away what was good about WoW during Vanilla, TBC, and WotLK. Some conveniences have been a benefit for sure, it is not as if they should never listen to player feedback. I want them to completely ignore player feedback this time around and see what creation THEY create and how good or bad it is. It might flop and it might not. Only time will tell. One thing is for certain though. I will gladly accept them trying something different. Making players choose even though it is unpopular is a new idea in recent years and I welcome the change.
Is that really healthy for the game though? Having nothing but changeable loadouts similar to Diablo 3 is NOT what is good for WoW. Look at the popularity of Classic which is inferior to even Vanilla and 15 years old… it has a LOT of player support (roughly half of retail). That is unheard of for a 15 year old version of a game. SL more closely resembles Classic’s talent window with its covenant system. Obviously not all players like loadouts that can be changed at the drop of a hat like the current ‘talent?’ window and spec.
Only time will tell how this expansion turns out. I figure I have nothing to lose by letting them try something different. The game has been subpar to versions of old for a solid 10 years. Going on like they were obviously was not working. Even if this change completely kills WoW (we know it won’t) I would rather them try something to bring WoW back to greatness than just let it wallow in mediocrity.
Most of the OP reads to me-- and most of the arguments against Covenants as they stand-- as “Covenants are going to suck because Blizzard sucks”.
We don’t really disagree all that much there. Blizzard’s track record of balance does not instill confidence. But I’d also say that they’ve improved with each attempt at the system.
I didn’t play much early Legion, so I can’t speak too much to that. It seemed like it was too slow to really get to the interesting stuff, but like I said, I didn’t hop on until Artifact Power rained from the sky.
Azerite Power was lame, in a way where my class didn’t feel right without it, and it was largely passive bonuses that never really felt fun.
Essences were good, aside from how they were acquired. Honestly no real complaints about the Essences themselves.
I’m ignoring Legiondaries and Corruption for this, because they aren’t really similar systems, but we’re still totally on the same page that they were a balancing nightmare.
I want Blizzard to keep trying and improving. Even if they decide to ‘pull the ripcord’ two months after release, I want them to give it a shot. I think it’s an interesting idea and want to see how it actually plays out.
Yes. Elitists got something I like removed (Titanforging) so I support anything that they do not like.
But part of it is that I do also think it’s a good system and folks just need to get over not being able freely swap everything.
If a group denies you only because you have the “wrong” Covenant, that’s actually a good thing, because you just dodged either a petty and toxic group, or one that really should go with someone they know if only for the better teamwork that will likely make a bigger difference than the DPS of Ret Paladin vs Sub Rogue. This isn’t sour grapes, it’s just being practical.
What is healthier for an MMO (not a game in general, but an MMO):
Gameplay in which players can easily go between very VERY different styles of gameplay, or just different approaches to how they play it, such as specs, because they like to experiment with the systems while not being a hindrance on the other players they’re with, or something that locks you into a decision so that you are said burden regardless of what you do?
We aren’t playing Baldur’s Gate. I would have loved if WoW were a big expansive single player RPG where we could impact the story in direct, meaningful ways. But we can’t. Because we are just murder hobo #47201 in a sea of murderhobos. And those other murderhobos have tastes and interests, and don’t want to play with someone who is going to drag them down.
You are a beacon of light shining in a sea of ignorance.
I really think this is an overblown argument. We’re not talking Vanilla Survival Hunter Lacerate, here. Just because something isn’t the Mathematically Best Choice doesn’t mean you’re playing a literal brick. That would be a problem. I’m just not seeing that here.
I got a headache from this stuff now, 
Have you seen the 10% damage buff in dungeons yet?
Yeah, ok but… for how long? DH has been meta for years while classes like Shaman can’t get a break.
Haven’t seen it in action. Not a fan of incentivizing Covenant stacking for a damage buff, but that’s a balance problem, not a core system problem.
Paladin in Kyrian, Druid in Night Fae, etc. Yes you have a very unique take on the subject.
Personally I am leaning more towards liking the current Covenant system then wanting it gone.
I think one of the main things that Blizzard got wrong was they misjudged how the players would view the system. What they wanted was for you to choose the Covenant that resonated with you the most, the one you felt fit you or your character. They knew that their would be people that would choose theirs based on stats, but they misjudged the wannabes that would start fear mongering players with the whole “If you don’t choose the right Covenant you can’t play” garbage (even though they’ll be the ones gatekeeping, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy).
The majority of players wanting the ripcord pulled think they are the same tier as Mythic raiders (they’re not, most have hidden profiles so you can’t see they’ve only done LFR and a few M+3’s). They can’t seem to grasp that this decision means more to some people then how well you do on a dps meter, they might want it based on fantasy. Like how it’s the wannabe’s fantasy to pretend they’re a Mythic tier raider
At this point I’m so sick of the 10k threads about it that yes, it is out of spite.
I really don’t physically care other than that, I’m not changing my covenant choices and it doesn’t affect me if someone else can.
It’s absolutely a core system problem.
If you fail a key, is it going to feel good knowing that you probably could have if the rest of your group had stacked the same covenant? If you’re making a choice on who to bring to your group, who are you going to pick for that key, the person who has access to a clear advantage, or the person who doesn’t?
This doesn’t even need to be an argument about high end gameplay. You’re advocating for a system that discourages experimentation and theorycrafting. Is there a single good reason why players shouldn’t be allowed to experiment with their builds? With literal player power?
All Blizzard had to do was make it a story/aesthetic choice, without locking player power behind it. You still get all of the “meaningful choice” that Blizzard wants in choosing your homebase and what kind of end game “hall” you have. Why does it need to be tied behind player abilities?