Give feedback on how to fix it - even if it means making certain talents baseline - like Lingering Insanity and Legacy of the Void.
I know I’ve been critical in the past and #removevoidform, but it’s becoming clearer that the dev team doesn’t want to commit those hours to redefining and retooling the spec.
If they are adding DP as a method to avoid using VF then its clear that they are open to situations where you wont be using VF.
That means to me, VF is not the core aspect that the Spec must work around. Its insanity as a resource. VF is just a way / tool to use insanity just like DP is.
So give an opt out talent that gives a bump in passive damage to make up the loss of the enhanced damage / stats and access to Void bolt. But make it so its not as powerful and that works for everyone.
I’m fine being 10-20% less powerful if I can choose to stay that way all the time as a passive.
That’s what I think anyway.
So Passive Shadowform playstyle lets you gain access to DP.
Active Void Form playstyle lets you gain access to VB.
Balance as needed.
I agree completely with Aneurysm.
In Legion, there was a Warmode build you could do where you did 20% (?) more damage if your insanity meter was full, and with the Mania talent, always ran 30% faster. This setup made World Quests much more pleasant, as you mostly avoided voidform unless you desperately needed it for burst on some boss mob, which is exactly the kind of occasional-cooldown vibe I’d want it to become.
Oh I totally forgot about that!
In terms of single target, what if they made Devouring Plague function like Unstable Affliction and it was not only a hefty dot, but also increased your damage to the target? Then add back in Mind Spike and make it function similarly to Void Bolt but change it to hit harder for all the dots on the target. Meaning: Apply Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain, add Devouring Plague as well, then use Mind Spike to hit for increased damage because all three dots are applied. This would give an alternative single target play style to Void Form, and would make balancing the two almost completely separate since Void Form wouldn’t make use of Mind Spike and make Devouring Plague only be usable out of Void Form.
I don’t know why this caught my eye, but I was instantly reminded of Clarity of Power’s “weaving” technique. CoP was their talent which was supposed to make a non-dot build viable for Shadow (remember it?). Then, theorycrafters figured out they could just use half of the talent and keep their dots and it was optimal.
Somehow I feel like anything like you’re suggesting here is going to find some odd hybrid thing that is optimal unless you actually replace Voidform when the talent is chosen. I wonder if the dev staff is still reelling from their failure of CoP providing two different playstyles in Shadow and they’re terrified to repeat it.
Or, they just don’t care about Shadow. That one is more likely.
I’m against Void Form becoming a talent, so I’m apprehensive to say Clarity of Power should be one as well, but you’re right putting CoP would probably be the best option. Make Shadow Word: Void baseline and put Clarity of Power in the first row. Choosing it replaces Void Eruption/Void Bolt with Mind Spike and gives you CoP.
Oh, I wasn’t advocating for CoP, I was reminded of a time in the past where they attempted to make Shadow “two playstyles” with a single talent, and how it blew up in their face.
But yes, make SW:V’s bonuses baked into Mind Blast and put a talent on that row that lets you avoid Voidform in some capacity. I agree with that.
How did it not work?
I played both AS and CoP in WoD and both were fun and competitive with each other with the right gear/talent build.
This is the way I was trying to make it work.
These are interesting, but there’s a couple of concerns I have. Firstly, no matter how good ideas are, I worry if we over complicate them, it’ll turn it another “We won’t do a rework at this time, we’ll look into this for the next expansion.” So I try to keep things as the same as we can. Firstly, Void Form can’t be a talent or it causes far more problems than that it solves. Bias aside, it’s very clear they want Void Form to stay the central mechanic to the class, so it makes more sense for them to add different play styles into our talent choices, that’s what they’re there for correct? My reason for saying put it in the SW:V slot would be to give the people who don’t like Void Form the chance to opt out almost immediately. So because of this, I’d rather the Mind Spike play style just replace the base Void Form spells, rather than over complicating it and shoving more of Void Form’s skills into the talent tree. We want to keep as many skills as we have currently have out of the talent system so we can get better talents, not have to buy back skills we already have. So you choose Clarity of Power (which is in row 1), then you make Lingering Insanity baseline, and you replace that with a new talent which you can call whatever you like but it makes Devouring Plague not useable in Void Form, but increases its duration by 10 seconds and adds in an effect that increases enemy damage taken by 5% (to make it fair with LoTV.) Then you revert Shadow Word: Death into what it is in live, and replace it with our new legendary Painbreaker Psalm (duration on your dots are consumed for upfront damage) as a talent rather than a legendary. This would turn the non void form build into more of a dot maintenance play style that would be viable, give more mobility, and could compete with Void Form quite well.
I have evolved my thinking a bit since i wrote that.
But just to give a bit of background on why I put VF as a talent.
That would make the spec 3 different playstyles.
All the while still keeping the spec enjoyable while leveling.
But if the spec stays focused on VF being THE spec feature then your going to have all the leveling priests hate the spec because they will never enjoy the spec until they reach max level.
See I think having DP as a leveling tool without the mobility of CoP, the power of Rotting, and the frustration with VF is a good route to take. Then you are rewarded with a more focused style at endgame.
My issue with that being is you’re saying that you’d have to be almost max level to use Void Form. There’s a couple issues with that. Firstly, for the people who like void form, it’s really unfair to make them wait that long to be able to use it. Secondly, think about people who just started the game and want to play shadow. They spend the entire leveling process learning how to properly use Devouring Plague, and then surprise, here’s an entirely different play style at max level. And if Void Form is anything like it is now, if they’d try to go into a raid and were using a dungeon build/play style, they’d really be in a bad spot. Giving them the chance to opt in and try both out earlier in the leveling process would allow them to play what they prefer, and ideally learn both.
Like I said, I have evolved my thinking since I wrote this.
However, are you saying that people are going to enjoy using Void Form while leveling?
I have heard people enjoy it during Raids and some in high M+ keys.
I have not heard anyone enjoying it while leveling up. In fact many people have posted that they tried leveling a priest and gave up because of the interaction of VF and how awful it feels.
Edit:
There are reasons people give some talents in various specs the “leveling” build.
VF is not a leveling build.
Edit #2:
I also think that at max level with the options I laid out, you have 2 options that keep the use of DP. Only Void Form it goes away for a “better” version in Void Eruption. Its the same build up / spend but its just on an ability that is AOE, not DOT, and puts you into a better DPS form with access to Void Bolt and draining mechanic.
Its just better though a bit different spender than DP.
I think that’s the point of talents.
Just like CoP in WoD made MB better/ easier to use and made you play slightly differently, I didn’t get that until max level.
The reason you don’t hear talking about people currently liking void form is due to our biggest game changer talent is Legacy of the Void which is in the dead last talent row. Additionally, it’s being propped up on systems and borrowed power so it feels terrible to play when you’re low level. Like I’ve previously proposed, LoTV and Lingering Insanity baseline, and upping our haste scaling to 20% flat would make it feel good to level as. Just like you’re talking about thinking about a new way to play with Devouring Plague, think about void form in a new way as well.
I honestly dont think the issue people have with VF would be fixed even if those are baked in.
Why do I say this?
Because I’m 110 and I have those talents and I don’t have the BFA borrowed powers and I still think its an awful mechanic.
I think that the draining mechanic and changing the gameplay from slow to hyper button masher and back again just throws off the entire spec. Your basically playing 2 different specs and weaving back and forth and it all just seems pointless imo. Your doing all this massive work for no reward. People see that they have to jump through so many hoops that every other class doesn’t have to even try and get similar result. So they get burned out fast and quit.
That’s a BIG reason why the priest class is the least played class atm. It didn’t happen suddenly overnight when Borrowed powers came into the game. They have been steadily dropping since Legion. I’m one of them.
That’s my point, you have two of the talents, and you don’t have good haste gear and you don’t have essences, azerite, corruption, etc. It’s propped up on systems right now, and you don’t have those systems. Of course it feels bad. That’s how shadow currently plays.
I’d be vary curious to see where you’re getting this data from. Looking at Warcraft Logs’ Nyalotha statistics, (which I know isn’t a perfect source) we are certainly not the most popular, but there’s definitely classes that are less played than we are. There’s less Rogues, Death Knights, we’re not too far off from druids which have 4 specs, there’s less monks, less shamans, and slightly less warriors. If you have a more reliable source of information please let me know. Would be curious to see what the other classes are like as well.
Haste is not an issue. I even have 4 set Night hold.
My issue is the weaving in and out part.
Its just a clunky mechanic. I hate how it works on a base level. I hate that i need to bind Void Bolt to a comfortable keybind so I can MASH it on CD andthe longer I am in Void Form, the shorter the CD becomes which then makes me have to MASH it more.
Then outside Void Form, its a dead button until I get enough insanity again.
Its so frustrating.
Because my VB button was my DP button. But DP was a “finisher” and so I only used its every what guessing here 10-20 sec? not ever 3 and then every 2 and then every 1 etc you get it.
I hate how the spec literally changes your button priority and not only that, it changes the haste / type to press everything. I cant get the “feel” for it in my head and predict what / how its going to behave in future situations i find myself in.
Because in…
I also hate the fact that my resources are always draining regardless if I play correctly or not. With Shadow Orbs, I never had to think over and over to myself “am I wasting resources?”
Its just frustratingly stressful to think that I always need to not make 1 little mistake. I have no breathing room. I have to play perfectly 100% of the time. No down time / cool down time. Its just 100% all the time.
The list goes on.
I have played my priest over the past 10 years as my main up until Legion. I have gotten the feel with my class / spec so much that I can hide my screen and all its icons and still play perfectly as I always have because I know the feel / pace of what / how my abilities behave.
I can’t do that with the VF draining / hasting / VB active / not active mechanics.
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-1&factionid=-1&minlevel=120&maxlevel=120&servertypeid=-1
I don’t know how accurate this is, but I haven’t seen anything that proves otherwise (though the one i saw before had priests just lower then shamans, but it looks like shamans are lower here but with good reason as they have class issues in BFA also).
The Key take away is when you compare us to Monks.
Monks have been known to be the least played class since its inception and there is a good reason for this, many people didn’t like them AND you had to level them from level 1. They didn’t have the shortcut like DK and DH did.
But now they have overtaken priests in class representation.
Edit:
I should note that back in WoD and all prior expansions, Priest class had a high representation. At least always in the top 1/2 classes. Now we are either dead last or close to it.
Even though you’re 110 that doesn’t make a difference, each raid tier ups the scaling, even in terms of Legion that’s 2 raid tiers behind, so your haste values are going to be awful. To give you an idea, Shadow Priests are sitting at about 38-40% haste right now with corruption, and we’re balanced around those levels of haste. So unless you’re close to that, of course void form feels bad for you. But point being: You don’t like Void Form and that’s fine! That’s your opinion, and you should have every right to play without it. Just as it’s fine for people who do like Void Form should be able to play it when they want. Your original point being is you wanted people to wait until max level to play it, and my point is that’s not fair in the slightest. What if Devouring Plague was a talent you got in your last row, would that feel good? If they’re going to allow multiple play styles to be in the game, then it needs to be fair and not biased towards one play style. The balance needs to reflect this as well.
See Monks are a flawed example because Brewmaster and Mistweaver are both doing insane damage/healing in Nyalotha. They’re flavor of the month, of course their numbers are going to be saturated. That’s like being surprised Mages are so popular at the moment, with Fire being asinine levels of overpowered.
Again, haste is not the problem. I have the ring on to trigger more haste if I want.
Its the mechanic I hate.
Sure. As a leveling talent though? So what your saying is I have crap haste and that’s the reason why I dislike Void Form. Yet your also going to say that people leveling with with WORSE haste will enjoy it?
I don’t see the consistency with this argument.
If anything, they would hate it MORE, not less. So then your forcing them to use a broken ability because its DESIGNED for long fights aka raid fights.
Not 1-2 min bosses while leveling up, and even worse on trash or questing mobs. I really don’t see how they can enjoy something that will just always be a waste the entire time they are leveling.
If I had it my way, I would ditch the VF mechanic altogether because I think its just plaguing the entire spec. It should never have been a thing to begin with OR it should have been a talent choice when introduced OR on a new class. Blizzard ROYALLY goofed when they took a defined playstyle / mechanics spec of over a decade old and just remove it for something entirely new and thought that was a good choice. Just like Demo Locks and Survival hunters only its worse for Priest because its the ONLY DPS spec.
Well until I see otherwise, ill follow what I find online.
Check this out. Same site / numbers reference but back in 2019.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/WoW_Census
DH is a big outlier as they went up 3% but that makes sense, people like me said F priest and played DH lol.