Modernize everything look at any other cp based system they’ve done, No rng on builder amounts, set finisher costs, finishers costing 1 resource. And in a basic idea if it has a cd remove all costs from it. These are just starting examples there’s really way to much to write it all. I’m not saying they have to exactly that but it’s the idea.
An easy way to look at it could be look at anything other classes have copied from rogues and got better versions of improve rogue things just like that too.
Shatter isn’t the same it use to just be something you could use for just pvp or questing now it has more mechanics to let it work on raid bosses etc. You know improved versions since 2004.
Things can still be there but modernize them just like that.
I’m sorry but I enjoy the CP system as is currently and alot of rogues do too. Don’t make it Windwalker Monk 2.0 this is a major reason why I refuse to play monk.
Part of Rogue (and Feral Druid) identity is building up CP with builders and spending them on a finisher.
If you basically copy/paste monk’s Chi I won’t every touch rogue again and I know that will be the same for many other people I know who main or heavily play rogue.
I mean you can say that chi is the reason that you don’t play monk but its essentially the exact same thing as a combo point system, just adjusted to a backwards degree.
I mean, I don’t even know what you could say beyond chi as somtehing another class copied and was better. Rogues alone just have the most baseline kit. Do damage with energy, press your point finishers, repeat.
I just don’t like it, I want to build 5 (6 when talented, 7 for Assassination when talented) combo points and unload them into a finisher, It’s soothing.
I’d like to point out most people don’t play a rogue at all for a reason. Literally everything costing energy is a large part of it, as well as more effort and ramp up to do any of the same things. If you think just a few bandaids are going get people to play it. Well all the bandaids from 20 years of it haven’t worked so…
Also I didn’t say it needed to be a copy paste but chi and holy power are much better systems that more or less are cp’s. Just saying
It doesn’t really matter anyway not like they are going to do anything anyway.
Most people don’t play X class at all for a reason. For me It’s Monks and Evokers, I play everything else.
Not everything costs energy. Now you could make an argument to remove energy from Finishers, fine.
Except the current CP system is heavily part Rogues (and Feral Druids) class identity.
If we were to go to a Builder/Spender system like Holy Power or Chi, I would never play rogue again and I know alot of my friends and guildies who play rogue never would play the class again. I an many other love that about rogue.
Finishers damage being defined by how many CP you spend has always been apart of rogue and should still be. The only major problem with CP was solved in WoD when it was moved to be on your character and not the enemy.
Leave the CP and Finisher mechanics as is they do not need to be changed.
I’m just saying the fundamental change you are asking for to change CP/Finishers to Chi or Holy Power would not go down well with likely the majority of Rogues. Nor is this what rogues are asking for to happen.
CP/Finishers have been core to Rogues (and Feral Druids) since 2004 and shouldn’t change. The only change that needed to happen was in WoD with CP being tied to your character, not your current target, and no longer needing brandades like Redirect.
What rogues like the OP are asking for are bugfixes and class/spec reworks to have Outlaw and Sub rogues in a much better spot then they currently are.
Is it gonna go live 100%? If so, there is no point playing SuB while Ret has new talent can have reduce 10% stun in pvp like an Orc Racial. Sub already low on damage in team fight. We are only CC bot if want to be helpful. We can inly burst every 2min. With out CDR, Sub is unplayable. Whynot just play Assa. This is ridiculous .
Btw, CDR is Sub unique talent. Please dont remove it.
Thistle Tea now automatically triggers when energy is reduced below 50.
Is also a horrible change on paper it seems nice, one less button to press and manage. But Thistle tea also gives mastery and is usually used in dance windows for extra damage from the mastery and extra damage from the increased energy econ.
With this change we will now have to micro manage our energy if we want to line up the extra damage inside our dance windows which is 100000x times worse then simply having the additional button that we can control.
If they go this route then they need to remove the mastery from it and bake the damage baseline somewhere else. They also should really remove it from the last tier capstone talent as it really isn’t worthy.
Simple solution would be to have a choice node with 2 versions. One which triggers when you hit 50 or less energy and one which doesn’t. Much like Earthquake and Shadow Crashes Choice nodes.
Though personally I would rather them just make Thistle Tea’s mastery bonus passive (albeit at a lower %) such as for arguments sake a 5% flat mastery boost that is up all the time for simply taking the talent.
Yes I agree with the mastery being passive that would solve my qualm and actually my preference would be to have one less button to manage so the passive change would be nice given it provided a passive mastery boost given it is a final tier capstone talent (at a lower % as you mentioned).
Button bloat for Sub is definitely a problem and a lot of these changes do in fact help with that but the removal of shadowdust = the need for way more changes to balance the spec.
The last thing I want to do is micro manage my energy to a <50 granularity ensuring I align my burst windows. The spec already is more busy then quite frankly most the specs in the game with pretty much the majority of other melee specs being way more linear, streamlined and simple to play.
Going back a bit in the thread regarding the whole CP discussion. Not sure what people are actually asking for. I personally like the builder spender paradigm of CPs its what makes a rogue well a rogue It only feels prohibiting when energy econ is low and as long as energy econ doesn’t act as a pure throttle then innately the CP functionality flows nicely.
Especially with the new shadow blades and things like shadowcraft adding nice highs to the eb and flow of the builder spender paradigm
I want them to fix the design to punish poor rotations with energy starvation, but not proper rotations. Someone playing correctly should be rewarded with enough energy to keep their APM up and to continue their rotational flow.
As it currently sits, no matter how well you do, you will be eventually starved for energy, and this is an issue basically unique to rogues at the moment.
Paladins rotation feeds them enough procs and Holy Power to flow smoothly, none of the mana classes have anything but CDs to look at, WW Chi just works fine with their flow and they never worry about energy unless spamming wrong, Warlock shard work perfectly with their design and procs, etc etc…
Rogues are the only class where doing everything right results in an RNG deficit and idle time.
Gank was basically saying to change Rogue to using Holy Power or Chi system and having finishing moves have a static cost of 3 CP no more no less.
Ya which is why maybe we should talk about have energy removed from Finishers and see if that may smooth things out.
Yup, I generally play Assassin so where my energy cap is 300 the change is pretty nice that I don’t need to press Thistle Tea when I hit 50 or less energy.
It’s kind of sad to see that none of the people making changes for rogues have any idea how to play sub.
That being said, i love the assass changes, that’s literally 2 keybinds gone. Still kind of mind boggling how there is no mention of ER bug even getting looked at for Deathstalker though.
I feel bad for outlaw, it’s literally got no buttons left now. They really need to make an aoe finisher for outlaw, like a grenade or something (maybe make killing spree pull out dual pistols and shoot in a circle like d3 demonhunters).
That’s not what I said but given all your replies not surprising you got everything I said wrong. In almost every reply.
I never said to do that, you just did not me. I just said use something like what they did with those but rogue version.
Meaning baseline cp overflow like literally everything everything else in the game (we use to have this as a talent should have just been baseline not fighting with dmg talents), costing 1 resource on finishers, less rng on cp building etc.
One other point on cp’s people do realize that because all of it works like it does is why a lot of times it you go out of energy. 7cp’s needed could be 2 mutilate’s into a finisher vs could be 4-5 if rng really hates you that’s that’s 100 energy vs 200-250. That’s just one example but something shouldn’t be able to be so rng that it’s that big if swing. That doesn’t mean there can’t be any rng but just not that wide. But it’s the reason those other systems have set amounts for everything. You can’t tell me that it feels good to need to use another 50-100 energy to the same thing randomly when energy regen already isn’t great.
The issue here is the class needs too much crit and haste just for the class to baseline function which is why many don’t lvl one, it feels horrible lvling and undergeared and the talent placement makes this even worse on the lvling front. I think the issue here is most rogue’s that are still playing are just lvling max lvl to max lvl and think this is fine because you are out gearing the content. And that doesn’t even cover all extra ramp up they’ve added over the years.
The amount of people playing something else shows there is a problem here.
You can still have it be different but not bad different. And there a different ways to go about accomplishing these I’d rather not type even more so don’t just make up something in reply for things that probably won’t even happen.
It only feels prohibiting when energy econ is low and as long as energy econ doesn’t act as a pure throttle then innately the CP functionality flows nicely.