Sweetheart; The entire model exists already. The moment the blood elves got remodelled in WoD; the High Elf skins did too. Take a walk through Dalaran (Wrath). Go visit the tent in the Argent Crusade Tournament Grounds. The models already exist and support player armor.
The Golden Eye Belf faces didn’t exist until now and wasn’t hard to make. The High Elf faces already uses 5 skin tones and has complete support with the current faces. The only thing that is needed is an underwear model (I don’t believe they added high elf underwear models. The only art asset that is missing.)
see that doesn’t say she seeded the trolls, “diversity” of organic life comes extensively from the huge diversity of micro organisms that are around
in order for life of any kind to flourish there is a huge micro environment that has to be built and/or maintained
this likely doesn’t apply to old gods (void creatures) and the elementals but it does for everything else
if we seeded life with the huge variety of micro life needed to sustain life on say…mars and created an atmosphere and environment where it is created
we wouldn’t say we seeded any subsequent races that came from that planet
“Directed pansper mia” (it’s broken up the way it is because the forums are dumb with what constitutes a banned word) is the closest we have and is seeding a planet with life (and in rare circumstances specific life)…but it’s not seeding a race, or even the trees and such that come from it
but it is seeding it with an extremely large amount of bio diversity as such is required for more complex lifeforms to ever kick off
We’re not talking about other MMOS though? Are they as successful as WoW? Were they the MMO that completely renovated online gaming? No. Why should Blizzard follow in the steps of less successful games instead of following an outline that has led them to the success they’ve reached up until now?
Unfortunately many High elf fans refuse to budge on this matter, they don’t want “dark-skinned” elves, they want High elves in their current incarnation. They claim that “Light-skinned” doesn’t play a major role in what visually defines Blood Elves, and yet when Blizzard states that in order for them to be playable those individual themes must be changed, most High elf fans will drastically change every other physical theme besides skin, and hair colors, even if it means completely butchering what it actually means to be a modern, alliance high elf.
The problem the High elf movement keeps running into is that Blizzard comes out and says “Hey thematic A and B needs to be changed in order to make them playable on the Alliance.” and the Alliances answer is continously “Look we changed theme X, Y, Z, happy now?” To which everyone says no, and then they act surprised claiming that we’re not willing to compromise when they’ve completely missed the point.
Night elves have quite a wide variety of different colored skins, there’s even a slightly humanesque skin tone available to them as well. But the point is that many of these skin colors are quite fair, and not what I’d consider a “dark” elf by any means. And if we’re going to start making that an argument for Night elves we really should gut them of most of those shades so they can truly claim the “Dark” elf thematic as their own, but as for now they have access to quite a few light skinned options.
Nightborne have the least amount of customization of every race in the game, even allied races. I just find it indigenous to make the argument that they happened to have one shade of the many different skin colors of Night elves, so clearly they’re stealing a theme from them.
It’s not besides the point, as the question is asked, does giving this theme to other races remove what makes Night elves a unique, and interesting race? Is it what intrinsically defines them when you’re choosing them on the character selection screen? No, most certainly not
These are the questions developers ask themselves when they create new races, and more often than not lore thematics have an easier time overlapping with each other than visual ones, as they present less problems for the developers in terms of balancing. Players are not often faced with the lore fantasy of their characters when they’re playing a game, but they are often faced with the visual fantasy of other races, so when you’re running around and you see an identical race on the other side of the faction, fulfilling all of the visual fantasies that once made Night elves unique, it presents an issue of racial identity to the player.
It’s not to say that it isn’t the only “Unique” theme they should have, but it’s really their most defining, and notable theme. Even Elisande refers to them this way during the Seige of Suramar, that they are “tree-dwelling” elves. Although in my case I’m not referring to “tree elves” in a lore sense, but rather the way they’re physically portrayed within the game. With more tribal tattoos, and athletic, more savage-like physiques with access to more natery classes like druids; it was in this way they were originally described by the orcs in WC3.
And they were not the only “elf” group within Warcraft, they were simply the first to be introduced into World of Warcraft as a playable race, High elves very much existed within the game, but were not given their own models at this point.
But to say that the Forsaken are inherently Lordaeron citizens, and thus innately “alliance” is a fallacy. To say that is to deny the Forsaken of their narrative, of their progressed within World of Warcraft. Again the problem of overlapping narratives presents less problems than overlapping visual themes - The Forsaken do not continue human-customs, they do not build human-themed buildings or weaponry, even their very clothes are often adorned with skulls, and bones. Thematically the forsaken have shed most of their traditions as humans, and have embraced a new culture as the undead, which has it’s own unique, and compelling narrative within the game.
Dying represents a larger thematic shift both culturally, and visually than simply being members of the same race who have different political views. Despite the fact that many High elves belong to the Forsaken we do not see them joining the Blood elves in Quel’thalas, or embracing their cultural traditions as Thalassian elves within Undercity. Which is why the void elves had to undergo a similar “thematic” change beyond political views before being added as a playable race with the Alliance. That the ritual that mutated them also changed them from a fundamental level that shifted who they are both visually and culturally.
And yet those very High elves that were stranded in Outland more closely resemble the Blood elves than they do modern Alliance high elves. Allerian Stronghold even sports a high elven themed tower, with their very leader residing at the Sunwell permanently as a High elf representative. This was done to show that because they were not forced to assimilate into alliance cultures, they were allowed to retain those traditions and themes among themselves until the dark portal reopened. It was even said that during the whole stay in outland all they wanted to do was return home, and they would have had the Alliance not given them a half-baked story on how all the Blood elves have joined Kael’thas and the demons of the burning legion.
I am inclined to believe that, after the high elves at Allerian Stronghold inevitably heard of the joint operation of the Shattered Sun Offensive to recapture the Sunwell from Kael’thas’ loyalists and the demons of the Burning Legion, many of them would have been eager to see first-hand what had become of their brethren at home and would have been a lot less hostile towards the Sin’dorei of Silvermoon than they initially felt. That’s why Auric refers to high elves and blood elves collectively as the “children of Silvermoon”.
Even Auric refers to himself and Lor’themar and Rommath as “us”, implying he counts himself as sharing an objective with them. Just before that line, as I mentioned earlier, he also refers to blood elves and high elves collectively as the “children of Silvermoon”. I doubt he’d use that kind of rhetoric if he was reluctant to work together with the blood elves to achieve the vengeance which they all seek.
It’s also worth remembering that the final assault on the Lich King was mostly conducted through neutral organisations. The Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade.
Many high and blood elves are shown working together as members of the Argent Crusade, not aligning themselves with the partisan groups of the Sunreavers or Silver Covenant. Cellian Daybreak occupies the same tent as Crusader Rhydalla and another blood elf crusader and they manage not to be at each other’s throats. I think that the Argent Crusade offered elves like Captain Auric the forum to work along side the blood elves and enact vengeance on Arthas and his Scourge without needing to associate with the rest of the Horde. A neutral space where dialogue could be opened and relationships worked on.
I think if someone were to be scrolling through customization options between Night Elves and Nightborne the distinctions between the two would be quite noticeable. In addition to what classes are available to them. The backgrounds of each character also sort of hearken to what theme the race is playing to, when you select a Nightborne they’re standing in a very regal-looking palace, while the Night elves appear to be standing in the middle of a forest.
If a player joined WoW looking to play a “forest elf” do you think they would choose an elf covered in magic runes with no access to any nature-themed classes? Or do you think they would gravitate to the Night elves with their tribal tattoos and druid class standing in an actual forest? I’d like to say the answer is somewhat obvious to this one.
But you are confusing “lore” themes with “visual” themes as you seem more concerned with how, and why they look the way they do than the simple reality of it. The moment you start going into what story rational decided on what they physically look like is the moment you transgress from purely “Visual” themes, into “lore” themes. And while both are important, they play different roles when Blizzard is developing a race. Ion stresses on the fact that he didn’t want to give “fair-skinned, blonde-haired” elves to the Alliance, not that he didn’t want to give the lore-reasoning as to why they’re fair-skinned and blonde haired to the alliance.
Skin color is a significant visual theme, not only in terms of video games but in terms of real life as well. What are the most common ways that we discern a person’s nationality when we first meet them? Hair, skin, and visual features. I can know someone’s name is Hank, but I won’t know they’re african american, asian, etc until I visually see them myself. And while the reasons as to why people from different regions look different is interesting, it’s not the initial thing we use to identify them from a visual perspective.
These themes are the most noticeable and immediately recognizable features we see in people that help us discern which nationality they are, and are the most impactful when choosing a race you want to play within a video game.
But when you put on gear you’re moreso representing that gear than your actual race - the problem isn’t how different you can make yourself look in gear, but how closely you can resemble someone else without it. That if you do choose to moreso represent your race with less gear (especially now that transmogs allow you to hide most pieces.) that players can still readily discern different races visually from one another.
Changing mannerisms are very subtle changes that more contribute to a person’s personality, than their visual representation. This is often used to give the audience a feel for the type of person a character is, and a way of giving them a certain depth.
Skin colors plays a massive role in how we see, and relate to others. When we’re born our minds immediately relate, and respond more positively to those who share the same skin color as our parents, it’s one of the very first things our minds are programmed with. This is why many characters in movies, and tv-shows that were once white, are now being replaced by black actors as to allow a more inclusive setting for all audiences, so that people can readily relate, and connect with them on a more personal level. It is not to suggest that is the only factor, but it’s a major one.
But why do you think people want to play High elves on the Alliance? It’s not simply the fact that we see them on the Alliance, as we see many races working with the alliance. It’s the fact that they’re “Visually” appealing that is the main drawing point, which is why many concepts of them retain their physical attributes as the “fair, blonde elves” despite the fact that they’ve been told that from a gameplay perspective it simply won’t work. Many players are loyal to the alliance as we can see many threads bragging about their moral high ground in the current expansion, or the many reasons why they think the Alliance is better.
Not everyone chooses the Alliance or Horde based off lore purposes either, more often than not what brings a player to choose Horde or Alliance is either that their friends already exist on said-faction, or a visually appealing looking race they want to play belongs on it. This is why in vanilla the alliance outnumbered the Horde drastically, because from a visual perspective the Alliance had the pretty races, and the Horde had the more monstrous savage races. And yet the moment the Horde got a pretty race in the form of Blood elves those ratios shifted, and have remained shifted since that time, with Blood elves still sitting at the top as the most popular race. Most people don’t pick blood elves because of their lore, most people don’t even know the slightest bit about their lore, they pick them because “visually” they are an appealing race. It’s the same reason why void elves are the most popular allied race in the game.
As much as I would love for this to be the case, there are way too many Helf supporters who will NEVER be happy until they get to play Blood elves with blue eyes. There are some out there that really only want the lore, but they are few and far between. I spend most of my time in the forums in the High elf thread, and more often than not the conversation turns into how they won’t be happy until they get fair-skinned, blonde-haired, and blue-eyed blood elves.
Think about it, what was the FIRST thing the High elfers asked for the moment Void elves were introduced? What was the question that was asked at the Q&A regarding them? I can tell you that it wasn’t “Can you make the void elves high elves” it was “Can you give the void elves fair-skin, and blonde hair” which has really been the objective for most of them all along. That despite Blizzard, and the anti crowd continously telling them that aesthetic A and B need to be changed they are willing to completely butcher the narrative culture of the High elves, to maintain those themes while changing literally everything they’ve grown to be within their story.
And that ship sailed away with their last chance to give those themes to High elves without transgressing on every last theme that belongs to Blood elves. At this point the alliance already have the blood elf model, with all of it’s animations, and that’s not going to change. I doubt Blizzard will go another step forward and rip away what little themes remain unique to Blood elves to another thalassian race for the alliance. Perhaps at some time in the future they might retcon, or have some high elves convert into Void elves allowing players to live out the lore fantasy of being an alliance high elf, but I don’t think we’ll ever see High elves as they are now as a playable race.
But you’re only acknowledging the story-telling side of what “Faction” identity is, and not the gameplay variables. If we were writing a book, and we could control the actions of every one of these groups and not have to worry about what faction-identity is to the players this type of argument would make perfect sense, but it is not so easy when being forced to balance a game for an audience that is split in half by competition.
That the “visual” identity of the races these players have been using for years now play a large role in what identifies a faction. At this current moment if you’re out questing and you see a fair-skinned elf run by you don’t immediately think “Oh an alliance high elf!” you immediately recognize them as a Blood elf from the Horde. It has been like this for nearly a decade now, and the playerbase for Blood elves as the most popular, and now iconic race on the Horde has been heavily rooted and established among the players. It is different when we’re speaking about races that have never been playable like the Furgolgs, Jinyu, etc. as because we do not see these characters in PVP, or open world we do not readily associate them. This is important for players, and Blizzard to maintain for the players, so that a race that was once the pride and joy of the Horde isn’t now suddenly showing up as the enemy, razing down Orgimmar, or swarming BGs. It’d be like if humans were given to the Horde, and then suddenly a huge horde raid group made up entirely of humans razes down Stormwind. Players would be reasonably upset. I, and many other players readily recognize the importance of retaining the integrity of these themes for the players. Because in the end we’re not just reading a story, we’re playing a video game.
They don’t though, at this point Blizzard controls whenever High elves battle against the Horde, and they’re very careful about when they fight against Blood elves. Even in Lor’themar’s short story are they very careful about making the distinction that it was not the Blood elves that raided Quel’lithien, but Sylvanas’ forsaken troops. That when the Blood elves had to fight against the High elves in Dalaran to free their imprison troops they made note that they were not happy about being forced to fight their own kin. That even a High elf leader Auric Sunchaser wants to reunite the group, and has positive relations with the Blood elves.
Even in this expansion, that is so heavily rooted in the faction war between the Alliance and the Horde we’ve seen hardly any presence, or activity from any High elf group. If the idea was that the High elves are some active military group willing to take the field against the Horde under the alliance banner why haven’t we seen even one militant group fighting in any of the assaults? That their roles have been reigned in as portal keepers, and shield mages. The moment you make them playable is the moment you give players the agency to claim that High elves are some force willing to fight the Horde, and Blood elves both, possibly stepping over story boundaries they wish to instill.
Thats the thing though, the race of the High elves are already playable in the form of Blood elves, so their stories are designed through the lens of the blood elves narrative. Which is why they often appear as an analog to experience blood elven narratives. Which is also why even as an alliance player you interact with High elves in order to enter the Sunwell, and experience more thalassian lore. It’s not strange to believe that Blood elf players want their stories to be innately connected, and as that has been the narrative since the very beginning. It’s not about “Stealing” their story, or their narrative but rather that people feel that as members of a race they’ve been playing for a decade now they have every right to have access to their lore fantasy. That a narrative that’s been played around with in regards of their reunifaction should actually come to pass, and that as blood elf players would really enjoy to see what sort of story developments would occur if they truly did reunite as one nation once again. That it could possibly even come with a revamp of Silvermoon to reflect it’s state as thriving city once again.
But the Horde and Alliance are not the same race, we do not see Alliance humans preaching about their shared ancestry and homeland. We do not have a human representative residing in Orgimmar, or Human pilgrims visiting the Valley of Strength. This is not an accurate parallel to reflect the relationship between High, and Blood elves, which are not exclusively hostile to one another. That most High elves have chosen to remain neutral and not take sides on each faction.
Canonically the only High elves to ever been exiled were the Quel’lithien High elves, who never actually sided with the Alliance and decided to remain neutral. And with the Sunwell restored, and the need for siphoning gone, and the “oppressive” need to mind control a remnant of the past, it’s not exactly a fair argument. Silvermoon is time-locked, and what we see going on there can’t fairly be used to reflect current Blood elven society. They had once felt it was okay to siphon the magic from M’uru, but since the Sunwell was restored we’ve see Liadrin take accountability for their arrogance, and selfish actions. The Blood elves narrative has shifted from being power-hungry elves to seeing the errors of their ways and striving for redemption.
It’s the same narrative that was used for when the Night elves accepted the Highborne back into their society, was it not? And their opinions, and beliefs contrasted between the two groups far more than what separated the Blood elves and High elves. That most high elves did not return to Quel’thalas not because of difference in politics, but because they felt scrounging to survive was beneath them, and wanted to retain their dignity. This is why Elisande comments on their “false” nobility. If the Night elves could accept the Highborn back into their society despite the many conflicting beliefs, why can’t this happen between the Blood and high elves?
I don’t think the High elves should rejoin and act like nothing happened, but I believe that there would also be many instances of good faith between the two groups. There are already instances of Blue eyed blood elves showing up among the Blood elves that could very reasonably be High elves who’ve repatiated into Blood elves, once of which by the name of Lanesh the Steelweaver was even acknowledged by a lead narrator Danuser, who said that we can expect to see some more story development from him in the future.
There are also the case of the Allerian High elves who did not get a chance to choose a side in the conflict, that once the dark portal reopened they were given false narratives of what choices the blood elves made, and it was only until the joint offensive of the shattered sun defeated kael’thas and the demons of the burning legion did they inevitably learn the truth. These High elves were not present during the original splintering, and have even less of a reason to not trust the blood elves. I believe that many of the elves stationed at the Allerian Stronghold have likely returned home upon learning that the blood elves in Silvermoon are not the same as the ones they came into conflict with at Firewing Point.
The reason we got gold eyes instead of blue is that the Sunwell was reignited with the essence of M’uru, so Sunwell 2.0 is a font of holy magic, with a little leftover arcane, where the old Sunwell was a pure arcane font created from stolen water from the Well of Eternity.
Since High Elf / Blood Elf eyes reflect the magic they pull from, just about everybody should be gold because all of them draw from the Sunwell. Even the Alliance High Elves make pilgrimages to the Sunwell.
Well this is partially true, the gold eyes are a direct reflection of a Blood elves’ devotion, and faith toward the light. (A result of their faith being restored with the restoration of the Sunwell) not a reflection of their exposure to the light magic specifically. The Blood elf narrator even says that the Sunwell, over time, can cure the Blood elves of their afflicted state, and is very careful to mention that many Blood elves still prefer the Arcane over the light within it. It stands to reason that over time, as the well cleanses the blood elves, that those who prefer the arcane would develop blue eyes to reflect this cleansing.
It also never specifies which element is dominate within the Sunwell, simply that the spark reignited it. Officially the Sunwell is a source of both arcane, and light magic.
Thanks to both of you for taking the time to get into it more, its a very interesting topic to me but seems like Blizz still needs more time to flesh it all out 100%, I could see both ways working.
Yup. Personally, I’d have preferred them to not have everything so close knit, but they seem to want everything to be closely related to the Titans, etc… I wasn’t even a fan when they came out and said “Yeah, Elves were once Dark Trolls”. I’d have preferred them to have kept it vague and just a rumor that some people believe, but isn’t proven. Oh well.
Yeah titans are a mysterious macguffin a lot of the time, i wish they had some more concrete rules for them. They are weak to fel and corruption but besides that have wildly varying sizes and seem to just travel thru space to seed or stab planets.
I agree sometimes its best to be more subtle but I don’t mind them fleshing out things more such as trolls being elven ancestors, that’s fine, but its brought up new questions that need answers too. Easier for writers to be vague.
Wow. It’s fun that you don’t know better than that and yet you think you should comment about Sin’dorei.
Eye color doesn’t just take on the ambient hue of whatever. Quel’dorei eyes have always been blue because the Sunwell was arcane. They got green from fel. The majority of both Sin’dorei and the remenant population used arcane sources to keep themselves alive when the Sunwell was tainted. It was only the ones who went completely overboard that lost all control.
If just being near a fel source was enough to turn eyes green, all the “Allerian Stronghold” elves in TBC would have had green eyes. But no, feeding on arcane sources kept them blue. Thus most Sin’dorei should have kept theirs too.
No, it’s a mix of both, that’s been said. They haven’t given us the direct proportions, but since Holy and fel are in direct opposition, it makes sense that energy is cleansing them first. But the arcane is very much present, and frankly has been what 99% of the Sin’dorei have been feeding on since forever.
This is all well and good, but still doesn’t change the fact it won’t turn their eyes blue without a retcon. Drawing on the well right now will only make your eyes Gold or Green. Fel energy is not cleansed by Arcane, it is only cleansed by light in this aspect. Fel is known as Demonic Arcane, or Arcane at its most potent, volatile, and destructive. Arcane as itself is already with it’s lure to want more and gain more, and if one actually follows through they will find it as it’s pure and evil energy. The damage has already been done. If you pull on arcane, you are just getting the same energy you’ve already been using, just at its more controlled and ordered manner. It does not cleanse it.
Are we pretending as if Jaina was slaughtering other races of the Horde? Shoulda, coulda, woulda, but didn’t. She didn’t attack the Barrens, she didn’t attack a military target. She attacked a group of Thalassians in their own home based on their race.
That’s fair enough, but I disagree. There were dozens of other ways she could have went about striking the Horde. Instead she targeted a specific group that was within her reach and, again, she specifically chose to kill Thalassian elves. For someone that supposedly hates the Horde so much she sure gets real friendly with Thrall. Guess that means orcs are exempt huh? She’s a murderer and a racist.
Did I say she didn’t care at all? No. I said she didn’t care enough to stick her neck out and defend it when doing so might have actually killed her, i.e. she didn’t show up to defend the city from the Scourge because she would have died. Clearly she is willing to fight for it, but not to die for it, which makes her a coward at worst and an fair-weather ally at best.
as we have already told your side before, blue/gold eyes are reflective of the cleansing effects of the sunwell which is a holy/arcane mixture and the fact a lot of blood elves outside of priests/paladins would be using arcane magic which is where the blue eyes came from in the first place
we know the green eye tint isnt definitive for blood elves, its already on record it will fade in time and as golden eyes proved. mages SHOULD have blue eyes. blood elves are no longer exposed to the taint after all, and the sunwell is burning away the fel a little bit everyday for those who dont have a strong devotion to the arcane or the light to speed up the dissipation
mages use arcane magic pretty much every day. use of arcane magic is why the original thalassian elves got blue eyes in the first place. that blood elf players should have the option to choose their eye color is a reasonable request
its inevitable. that you think they are going to reserve an eye color for a few minor NPCs that rot off screen is comical
if all pros have to go on as a major point of difference is an eye glow then theyve really nothing when it comes to arguing blood elves and high elves are different beyond an adjective that has become politicized in modern times
oh, and blue eyed blood elves already exist. development even acknowledged it
Americans, Australians, and Canadians are still humans right? Just because we left the UK didn’t mean we changed species.
Blood elves are high elves, with a different name to honor the dead. The Alliance betrayed the high elves and treated them with contempt and almost seemed to try and kill them off a few times. The NPC high elves that are around the alliance are traitors.
Not the point? She never said “these filthly blood elves!” she said the “horde” multiple times, even when she recounts what happened to Varian. You’re trying to insert your opinion as if it’s some universal fact. Every time an alliance kills a horde it’s not some because of some personal vendatta against that personal race, it’s that they’re different factions.
But Thrall wasn’t present, the Sunreavers were. It could have been ANY other race and she would have done exactly the same thing, but that doesn’t mean it was done with some racist intent. It was purely because they were Horde who had betrayed the neutrality of Dalaran. She was ready to flood ALL of orgimmar and kill every Orc before she was stopped by the Kirin Tor.
At that point she was indeed a psychopath bent on rage and revenge.
She and her men could have easily died fighting the Amani as well, I really doubt that the Farstriders and Silver Covenant got out of that completely unscathed without suffering a single casualty.
It’s one of the only instances that Vereesa and the Silver Covenant act without Dalaran, putting their own lives on the line for the sake of protecting their homeland. Heck this entire expansion we have yet to see the Silver Covenant do anything for the Alliance, despite supposedly being loyal Alliance soldiers, and yet were more willing to fight along side the Blood elves for Quel’thalas.
First of all drawing on the well does not make their eyes gold, only blood elves who are devout in the light receive gold eyes. So a blood elf can be cleansed by the light of the Sunwell without their eyes turning gold, which would naturally return it to blue.
This also means that if two golden eyed blood elves were to have a child, their eyes would be blue, not gold or green. When you make a Blood elf the narrator very specifically says that overtime the light of the Sunwell will cleanse them, but that many Blood elves still prefer the arcane anyway.
Secondly the arcane can override the fel as evidenced by the wretched Blood elves who have over-indulged in arcane magic and have had the green glow in their eyes replaced by blue. They have not been cleansed by any method, or ritual, the over-abundance of arcane magic simply overrode the fel, which is likely to happen to any Blood elf continuously exposed to arcane magic from the Sunwell.
i mean lets face it, if the eye color is all that is in the rhetorical arsenal when attempting to argue blood elves arent high elves, then its pretty much a lost cause isnt it? in the grand scheme of things the extra option for blood elves will be just that, an extra option for blood elves. it isnt the basis for an entire allied race and never will be
