Ideal Horde Council set up

This is way too complicated. The council as it is already is nearly perfect. I’d just swap out Lillian Voss with someone from the RAS since they worked with the Forsaken government and are more culturally relevant, so they’d probably be more inclined to what the Forsaken want.

The council is already as described :stuck_out_tongue: it’s 12 people who are also the heads of their respective governments, I just added 3 new people

  • There is a Trade Union of Goblins that is in canon limbo
  • The Zandalari do have a Zanchul Council that includes the Tortollans but not the Vulpera for some reason
  • There was implications that the trolls want to be unified once more, and still look to Zandalar for guidance
  • The various Loa Priests also are part of the Zanchuli
  • The Kalimdor Tauren already exist in federation, as do the Highmountain Tauren, they just aren’t unified
  • Silvermoon does have a Triumvirate under Lorthemar, but Convocation is still schrodinger’s canon like the Goblin Trade Union
  • Hozen allied with the Horde like the Jinyu did the Alliance but that’s yet to be seen
  • Thrall is already chief of the ogres/etc part of the Horde
  • Etc

What you’ve done is give subcouncils for each representative race, which I assume would vote on matters and then have the representative give their result to the council. But what would happen if those subcouncils get deadlocked and miss the deadline? Their representative would have to not give a decision on whatever the matter is. Then there’s your proposal that the Vulpera be a part of the Zanchuli council, which would either take Kiro off the council or give the Vulpera more significance since their vote would be added to both themselves and the Zandalari. It’s confusing.

Nah, it’s just denoting the internal governance of each race.

Lorthemar decides on behalf of the blood elves as Head of State and Government in matters concerning the Horde.

However in matters concerning the internal governance of Quel’thalas, that is a matter of the standing Statocracy (Magisters, Farstriders, Blood Knights) under his Regency.

It’s how the Holy Roman Empire worked un Habsburg rule, in fact. Confederate Electoral Monarchy with regional autonomy based on Royal Audiences dependent on territories dependent on local Viceroys or appointed Royal Audience Presidents.

Nah it’d double dip.

Kiro is part of the Horde Council on the basis of race, and Lashk should be there too.

But both Lashk and Kiro have their people living on Zandalar, and thus Kiro should’ve been included next to Lashk on the Zanchuli Council.

I mean, it’s fairly simple.

Troll + Zandalarian Races = Talanji, Rokhan, Kiro, and Lashk
Horde Pandaren + Horde-alligned Pandaria Races = Ji and Monkey King

Kiro and Lashk have a voice for their people for the Whole Horde, but also help Talanji in the governance of Zandalar.

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I see, I understand better now. Now that I know, making Calia the representative is a bold choice.


Again, in a wish granted scenario, the Forsaken future development is:

  1. Primus helps Helya move past her trauma and beats up Odyn for trying to usurp the Shadowlands, Helya is now an ally to the Forsaken, Kvaldir join the Forsaken Navy
  2. Primus takes responsibility for the Forsaken, teaches them Proper Necromancy so they don’t rot and eventually wither away
  3. Forsaken are drafted as the House of the Forsaken, the Primus charges them with making sure the Sepulcher is protected (probably on Azeroth, but we’ll see)
  4. Calia is assigned Margrave of the Forsaken, and she’s taught Necromancy to help her people
  5. Some Calia vs Arthas vs Zovaal drama that causes Calia to obtain a Shadow Form (after all, if she’s Light Undead, then that coin can be reversed like a Naaru).

side note made this thread:


I don’t think Helya should be anything other than a villain (which she is). Helya’s far outdone Odyn in terms of ‘bad things’ done - let her just die for bloody real.

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Odyn literally had been usurping the Kyrians for ages.

What Odyn did to Helya was cringe and disgusting, twisting her body against her will after resisting him, and the in-game lore book mocking anyone who believes Helya has not aged well.

They can’t Retcon it, so better to affirm what Odyn did was wrong and Helya can break the Survivor Becomes Abuser trope.


As a long term forsaken fan I’ve got to admit I initially wanted the Primus (and frankly this expansion) away from the Forsaken but this idea is growing on me

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Let’s say he is usurping them (which I disagree with) - so what? I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing.

Just because she’s evil due to someone else doesn’t excuse it. She’s helping the dude trying to end the universe, remember?


Nah. Odyn literally plagiarized magic from the Shadowlands against the will of the established order and without the consent of Kyrestia.

She’s helping Zovaal after eons of bitter resentment because her body and soul were twisted by Odyn and she was forced to serve against her will for a time.

Odyn did that in order to usurp the natural order of the cosmos so he could have some immortal warriors that idolized him, claiming to do it for fighting the Legion and yet.

Primus and Kyrestia should be on their way to the Halls of Valor to beat the dude up, and Primus should have sympathy for Helya since Zovaal’s chains breaking that led to her magical violation is ultimately his own failure.

Breaking the Survivor Becomes Abuser trope is needed.


I’m still struggling to understand why you think that’s a bad thing - plagirise magic lol. I think you are inventing these positions - reasonable that they are, of course - to suit your damning criticism of Odyn. Do you really think Odyn’s purpose was explicitly to “usurp the natural order of the cosmos”? Come now.

Sorry but I think that helping a universe-destroyer kills any sympathy I have for her. It doesn’t help that Helya was established as a villain and then her backstory was revealed after, as well. Meh. I can’t help but love Odyn regardless. Gods gonna god!

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This is a bad take and you should feel bad in light of everything we’ve found out about what has been going on at Blizzard and the fact one of the most prominent abusers was in charge of the story once Metzen left.

Helya is a survivor allegory.

Helya is a Survivor Becomes Abuser trope.

Helya’s portrayal in Odyn’s book is palpably mocking “Believe women”.

Helya deserves better. Odyn deserves to be punished.


occuleth maybe

Nah Occuleth would be First Telemancer

vulpera aren’t people

They are Lord Renard’s abandoned children

kiro best racial leader! and more cute and fluffy

Obviously nobody.

No more Warchiefs.

It makes perfect sense. Every race in the Horde should be represented. But the playable races aren’t the only races in the Horde.

Lorewise, it makes no sense that the Vulpera should have a seat on the council, while larger groups like the Taunka and the Hozen do not.

No he didn’t. He usurped the order imposed by the pantheon of Death. A rival pantheon whose order is no more “natural” than his own.

Nah categorically false, the Kyrians are the psychopomps of the cosmos, Val’kyr should not exist full stop. It’s taking souls from the Shadowlands by a being of the Pantheon of Order.