Ideal Horde Council set up

It isn’t lol

They’re gonna glass box her like Illidan in case subscribers drop drastically again like in WoD

IF, big if, if she got a real redemption story in sl…would then the horde and alliance still hunt her? i doubt it, so…in such a case, would she need to stay beyond the veil?

tbf, i´m not a fan of “Sylvanas Redemption” Story, but …it seems we drive directly toward it.

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Yes because everyone is tired of the story and they know if they take her off the board and bring her back later, it would get people interested.

Same way Illidan disappeared, came back, we got Demon Hunters, and is now in a glass box again.

Sylvanas will disappear, eventually come back, we get Dark Rangers/Banshee spec/class, and then be put in a glass box again.

Remember Illidan and Sylvanas statues came out same time.

Same as the Jaina/Warchief Thrall statues.

we´ll see, if she got a real redemption, she will come back with us…


Tbh I would rather keep denizens of the Shadowlands far away from Azeroth at this point. Aside from maybe teaching Calia some cool body preservation tips to take home to Undercity, I kind of want to leave the Primus, Sin’dane and the like in Maldraxxus so I can forget about this expansion lol


Yeah that’s the goal.

We literally have two perfectly good unused Forsaken necromancers in the canon. Helcular was Kel’Thuzad’s apprentice. Gunther Arcanus is a Lich LARPing as a Normal Forsaken.

The solution is right there:

  • Make Calia spooky
  • Have Margrave Sin’dane teach Helcular/Gunther proper Necromancy, no more “souls not properly attached to bodies” nonsense
  • Have Margrave Rathan and Margrave Marileth teach Grand Apothecary Faranell how to Build-a-Body and remove Blight, no more “Forsaken bodies rot over time” and no more “Undercity is gone”
  • Give Natalie Seline a Forsaken model (and give Afro-textured hair to the Forsaken, also beards) and make her important


related note, I kindly ask for a bump


imagine this on a forsaken T.T

I’m paying an artist this weekend to do a mockup for how Natalie Seline with her current hair would look as an undead and this beard + cesar combo would look on a Forsaken

Yeah cause after we reclaimed it we gave it back to the Horde for no reason.

Mate, you had me at:

Bump time!


Also, I really object to the fact that as it stands, Baal’s ideal arrangement for the Horde (and the Forsaken more specifically) doubles down on the extremely obnoxious pattern of “if you are undead that means that you are automatically Horde regardless of your background” that has permeated the Forsaken since Cataclysm.

And it’s weird that I seem to be the only one around here who objects to a major faction in the Horde essentially being a virus that sustains itself by co-opting parts of the Alliance.

fans self


That top one… wow. He fine.


The Forsaken are the free willed undead remnants of predominantly Lordaeron.

Playable humans in WoW are from Stormwind, Gilneas, and Kul Tiras.

From a story standpoint the Horde has far more claim to any and all Lordaeronian characters than the Alliance does. The Alliance gets an easter egg like Turalyon here and there, but any and all Lordaeronian undead can and should be Forsaken, as should any free willed undead who feel that being a part of a nation of their brethren is what they want.

If the Alliance gets scattered remnants of Lordaeron then the Horde should be entitled to some scattered remnants of other kingdoms, such as Derek Proudmoore.

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That is is pretty much all wrong but I’m so freaking tired of having to explain the history of human lore to people on these forums. So. Tired. It never sticks.

I suppose that it’s not a surprise that the lore community would come to be overwhelmingly Horde dominant just like every other element of this game though, so it makes sense that nobody would have any knowledge of human history here, or at least not enough people to consistently correct this nonsense.

First of all hi I’m Alliance but I think the Forsaken are cool :stuck_out_tongue:

Secondly, I know human history. I know of Lordaeron’s importance in Alliance history. But I dispute the idea that any and all human characters must be claimed by the Alliance when the Forsaken also have a legitimate claim to Lordaeronian lands, culture, and history. In fact, I would argue they have MORE of a claim than PLAYABLE humans in World of Warcraft, leaving things like roleplay aside, where obviously you can pretend your human Paladin is from Lordaeron or Theramore or something.

I don’t even know who specifically you’re reacting to being “co-opted” into the Alliance, but I believe it is also unfair to strip the Forsaken of their Lordaeronian heritage, and I have long objected to the main face of this predominantly Lordaeronian nation being an elf. Even as someone who loves elves to bits. The only Lordaeronian hero of any real note in the Forsaken AT ALL was Nathanos Marris, who is really quite minor in the grand scheme of things. Why didn’t the Forsaken get people like Gavinrad the Dire? Even Uther the Lightbringer? They have a similar narrative to the Forsaken in that they were killed by the Scourge. Why not take it that step further? But no, instead it was all about the Banshee Queen.

If you’re referring to Calia though… At no point in WoW’s history was Calia Menethil a part of the Alliance. She was born into Alliance royalty, yes. But prior to the fall of Lordaeron, almost all Forsaken were part of the Alliance, so I don’t count that at all. After the fall of her Kingdom, entering into the WoW era, Calia had no political role whatsoever. She clearly had Alliance friends, and even arguably Alliance sympathies, but she stayed the hell away from politics for pretty much her entire exile, mostly hanging out with Alonsus Faol, an undead (and someone who should be a major part of the Forsaken in my opinion). Derek Proudmoore has an Alliance background, certainly. He actively fought in the Alliance military… decades ago. At a time when, again, every Forsaken would have also been Alliance at the time. Derek is in a new world now, in a new body. If he wants to support other free willed undead in their own nation, then I say… great! I think it’s bizarre that they even could raise him as a remotely preserved person after he was dead for so long, but hey, it happened… and I welcome him as a part of the Forsaken.

Listen, frankly, I think Lordaeronians in the Forsaken are actually UNDERREPRESENTED and have been for a very long time. A lot of Lordaeronian heroes are simply a part of the Alliance, and the Forsaken have been left with very little of their human heritage.

So, with full knowledge of human history in mind, give the Forsaken a little more because they’ve been shafted for far too long.


Adding a post on Horde me to re-emphasise the following, also.

Our view/interpretation of the story is SUBJECTIVE. Highly subjective. OP is entitled to his personal “ideal situation” scenario. It’s not really yours to “object to”. It’s not official lore.

It’s like objecting to the fact that I personally like to eat sausage rolls. Like, it doesn’t really affect you, and it’s none of your concern. OP posted what he thinks, personally, would be cool. If you object to it so hard why don’t you make your own version where everyone is kissing the Alliance rather than going on and on about it like you’re personally offended lmao.


his point is not the importance of lordaeron for the alliance, but the fact that most of stormwinds people are …no stormwind native people, you know, only 3 Shipps survived Stormwinds raiding through the hands of the orcs…3 Ships…in fact stormwind is a mix of all human kingdoms in heritage with a few “Native Stormwind” people remaining there.

its exist Lordaeron refugees there, gilneen, arathi, alterac…and the list goes on.

Yes to everything you said but despite being an elf Sylvanas did keep all of Lordaeron customs for the Forsaken, right down to the cultural importance of the wickerman festival, and also creating a grave for Terenas, and with the exception of gutterspeak being part Thalassian (mostly to explain why Forsaken can’t understand common in gameplay mechanics) she never expected the Forsaken to convert to even culture.

Her being an elf is a pretty minor annoyance. The Forsaken have the most Lordaeron culture in the game.


Sure, but that history still dates back to the resettlement of Stormwind following the Second War. There were also slaves kept by the orcs who were freed, so the sole survivors of Stormwind were not in fact the refugees who ended up in Lordaeron.

Even with all that said, we’ve never been given statistics on to what extent the people of Stormwind are a refugee population. I’d be fascinated to see them, but we’ve never been given those statistics. There’s definitely mixed ethnicities there, but I do not believe that this intra-humanity-multiculturalism means that the Kingdom of Stormwind has a claim to all Lordaeronian characters ever, especially undead ones, when the Forsaken have long been deprived of their own Lordaeronian heritage, at least in terms of in-game representation.


Playable humans start in Stormwind. It does not mean that they were born and raised in Stormwind, especially since that would actually be impossible given that not long before WoW, Stormwind didn’t even exist. In fact, what evidence we have in light of Stormwind’s destruction in the First War and its status in the leadup to the Third suggests that playable humans in WoW are predominently from Lordaeron. Because if they weren’t, they would be literal children like Anduin was at the start of WoW.

That’s just how the timeline works.

The Forsaken stripped themselves of that heritage. They deliberately and wilfully rejected it in Warcraft 3, when they betrayed and destroyed what remained of Lordaeron’s leadership in the name of Sylvanas, a Thalassian Elf. And then in Vanilla, their questing largely revolved around purging what remants of Lordaeron’s society that they could find, particularly in places like Hillsbrad, where the Forsaken embarked on a deliberate extermination campaign targeting Lordaeron humans.

This is all a matter of public record.

A) Gavinrad was from Stormwind. He’s like the only notable Stormwind character to appear in Warcraft 3, come on man.

B) Because Uther wouldn’t want anything to do with the Forsaken. Because only a complete and utter imbecile would look at the Forsaken and not see that they are no longer the people that they once were.

Huh? Why shouldn’t something count just because it was prior to WoW? Why does the fact that the Forsaken were killed and raised from Alliance bodies suddenly erase the Alliance’s role in the narrative? Did Arthas’ Alliance history cease to be relevant just because he was turned into the Alliance’s enemy? Does Anduin’s Alliance history cease to be relevant for the same reason? Given how Blizzard wrote WotLK and how they’re writing Shadowlands, that certainly doesn’t appear to be the case.

This is the core of my objection here. What you’re proposing isn’t just sidelining the Alliance, it’s tantamount to Alliance erasure, and it’s an inevitable byproduct of the thing that I mentioned earlier, which is the incredibly toxic “rule” that the moment anyone becomes undead, they go Horde. That is a straight up parasitic relationship that benefits the Horde exclusively.

What you don’t realize is that them building up a stronger sense of human identity will inevitably result in their identity growing closer to an Alliance identity and growning more distant from a Horde identity.

This is in fact the typical complaint from Horde players (and Forsaken players) regarding Calia. They don’t WANT a human identity, they want an undead identity. Giving them a human identity is taking something that the Alliance wants to keep away from the Alliance and giving it to the Horde even though the Horde doesn’t want it. It makes literally nobody happy.