Ideal, but fair depictment of Races- Round 1, Night Elves

[Aviala-wyrmrest-accord (Aviala)]

The Night Elves being beaten every other day in their own forests , the one place they should be nigh unbeatable, say hi.

Why should they be unbeatable? The orcs are masters at guerilla warfare, they misdirected the bulk of the Night Elf military to Silithus, and they had the advantage of surprise.

While I can’t claim to speak for everyone, I get the impression that for a lot of posters, the problem was that this was happening -again-.

I think that, without the history of getting surprised by goblin shredders (and at night, wasn’t it?), there would be a lot less furor over this aspect of the War of Thorns.

My own personal wish for the War of Thorns was for the night elves to not even form a defensive battle line, and just evacuate civilians, slip everyone into the woods, and set traps and make guerrilla strikes against the Horde host. Let the trouble with the night elves be pinning them down, rather than actually fighting them. The Horde can feel strong as their army crashes over whatever resistance they do run into, and the night elves can feel stealthy and show off their ambushing skills rather than trying to be a bulwark.

Perhaps it would feel better if we had some examples like that of the night elves showing off their skill and connection with the forest - show some cases of them outsneaking some Horde before this next instance of them getting ambushed again. (Sigh if only we could have seen Tyrande’s push through Ashenvale leading up to her scene in the Siege of Orgrimmar…)

As it is, whatever good justifications the attack has -this time-, it feels like just another instance of showing off night elf incompetence in their own magically-suited-to-their-strengths territory.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

The Night Elves don’t really have experience with dealing with Scourge or Blight.

I think you missed like the entirety of Warcraft III.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

The Night Elves don’t really have experience with dealing with Scourge or Blight.

I think you missed like the entirety of Warcraft III.

While the Scourge did attack Hyjal, they never got it to Plagueland status. And the Felwood was/is… well… Fel.

[Reallyhappy-dalaran (Reallyhappy)]

The only people who actually care about Undercity are Forsaken fans, such as yourself I’m assuming, and Human Paladins that incapable of being devoted to more than crappy deus vult memes.

No one else gives a toss about Lordaeron and it’s also why Night Elf fans aren’t satisfied with SoL or Dazar’alor being our supposed pay back. We don’t care about some dusty old human city. Nor do we care about taking some shiny boats and one King.

We want vengeance for Teldrassil. Not our losses to be used as excuses for Human fans to attack the Forsaken.

I still think Sylvanas blowing up her own city should be a far bigger issue then it’s portrayed as in game. Even if everyone evacuated, there is still a massive refugee problem and a new large homeless population in orgrimmar.

[Syaeles-moon-guard (Syaeles)]

Lordaeron is a big deal in the story looking at it as a world and not a piece of media. But to nelf fans it means nothing.

[Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord (Galenorn)]

This was the rest of Galenorn’s post:

I don’t even try with Drahl anymore. Their posts about Night Elves always boil down to “The Night Elves shouldn’t have anything” or “The Night Elves shouldn’t be good at anything”. Sometimes both.

…why does no one remember undercity

Context, I would imagine. If the Darnassian civilian population had been evacuated (thus, no genocide on the hands of a playable faction), and Tyrande burned down Teldrassil herself to deny the Horde a victory, I imagine things would have been much different tonally around here.

Even if everyone evacuated, there is still a massive refugee problem and a new large homeless population in orgrimmar.

But that’s boring logistical stuff, not the super hyped, shonen tier storytelling the devs are aiming for. Besides, “logistics” sounds similar to “logic”, and the devs are allergic to that.

As it is, whatever good justifications the attack has -this time-, it feels like just another instance of showing off night elf incompetence in their own magically-suited-to-their-strengths territory.

This. I forget who said it ages ago, but “Never engage Night Elves in the forest” should be the Azerothian equivalent of “Never get involved in a land war in Asia”.

Night Elves have been strong enough to stand on their own two feet for ten thousand years. It’s how they were originally presented to us in WCIII. If that’s so incongruous to the setup of WoW, then they shouldn’t have been made playable. Or they should have been made into their own faction. Anything but the endless frustration of forcing them to fight with both hands tied behind their backs, and blindfolded, just so the Horde can get some wins. Or the constant hobbling, nerfing, and defanging they have to go through so that Humans can stand on equal (or higher) footing than them.

[Galien-thorium-brotherhood (Galien)]

Come on man please stick to the topic I am talking troop vs troop not malfurion vs thrall or tyrande vs drek’thall heroes aside my point is that the civilians taking up arms was more symbolic than anything. the strategy I can agree was intelligent and the execution made the most of what they had for as long as possible but it was little more than a stalling tactic Malfurion isn’t a fool he knew the situation.

[Terribirus-sargeras]

Western Plaguelands has the Cenarian Circle making MASSIVE gains on untainting the blighted lands (FAR faster than the Light Based organizations within that reagion have); and their magic is “LIFE” based, similar to the Red Dragonfire that purified the Blight at the Wrathgate.

You know Droité, i like you. Prepare for a chapter on my Series. So start dusting all of that Gallywyx salt because you’re gonna need it

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Okay, clicking back through the conversation to try to find the root of what we were talking about, I went back to:

again I don’t dislike night elves I dislike when any race is portrayed in a dishonest fashion I.E the night elves have the best warriors, druids hunters mages, rangers, shaman and waffle house on azeroth. Your arguments are usually really bias and it tends to push people’s buttons when they have to continue to explain to you that the average night elf citizen is not more battle harden than the warriors of a warrior race like the orcs, or that Malfurion did the heavy lifting for the vast majority of the kal’dorei resistance.

To which for this part:

the average night elf citizen is not more battle harden than the warriors of a warrior race like the orcs

I was on topic:

Night Elf civilians holding off the Horde from taking their land from after Warcraft III until up to Seige of Orgrimmar, as per Terran Gregory’s description.

Though for this part:

Malfurion did the heavy lifting for the vast majority of the kal’dorei resistance.

I agree with you, during the War of the Thorns. And Tyrande is back and fighting, too, meaning that the Night Elves have twice the heavily lifting power they had before, which is what I said:

Tyrande and Malfurion are both now on the front lines, and the situation is entirely different than either the Warsong’s initial incursion into the Night Elf lands where they faced neither, nor the War of the Thorns where they faced Malfurion alone and had taken multiple preparations for, something they have not shown to have prepared for again.

[Galien-thorium-brotherhood (Galien)]

Okay so are you of the opinion that the average night elf citizen can handle elite horde troops like akiyass, or are you stating that the night elves have a few heavy hitters that are capable of tilting battles in their favor and just so you know I’m not railroading you here I’m geniunely asking if either of these are your opinions or if you have a different one entirely

[Fisthook-moon-guard (Fisthook)]

Not that the orcs would ever do it again, but there are plenty of pit lords at large (demons dont just dry up because Sargeras is under lock and key) plus i believe you are making too much of the whole use of demon blood and too little of Cenarius’s presence, and the fact that the wisps themselves create a ridiculous homeland advantage (countered by demon blood.)

The idea that Kael hasnt Teleported or used a portal in game is ridiculous.

(I thought he personally sent for help?) You mean fleet sent from Silithus? You mean where the night elf army was set? Saurfang performed that feint for a reason. And it worked well for the Horde. So yeah the Night elves are down to refugees and a small group of fighters.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Okay so are you of the opinion that the average night elf citizen can handle elite horde troops like akiyass, or are you stating that the night elves have a few heavy hitters that are capable of tilting battles in their favor

I am of the opinion of both of those fact, yes. And I do understand how it can come off as annoying if people believe this is dishonest. However, I have provided plenty of backing for why those are honest opinions. I’m not one to just making things up without any references, and I’m fully willing to admit when I’m wrong if people can cite when I’m wrong. But this hasn’t been the case for these two facts.

i believe you are making too much of the whole use of demon blood and too little of Cenarius’s presence, and the fact that the wisps themselves create a ridiculous homeland advantage (countered by demon blood.)

There’s one Warcraft III mission, “The Spirits of Ashenvale”, where the Horde wins a fight against the Night Elves before Cenarius gets involved. There’s another Warcraft III mission, “Enemies at the Gate”, after Cenarius was killed where the Night Elves win against the Horde and Alliance working together (Rest in peace Duke Lionheart. You didn’t deserve that). So both sides won one fight without Cenarius’ involvement.

The idea that Kael hasnt Teleported or used a portal in game is ridiculous.

Hey, I didn’t write Warcraft III. I didn’t make it so Kael’thas didn’t teleport when the caravan was overwhelmed and Tyrande saved him instead, nor why he didn’t when escaping from Garrithos and Lady Vashj opened the portal for him instead. He just didn’t.

(I thought he personally sent for help?) You mean fleet sent from Silithus? You mean where the night elf army was set? Saurfang performed that feint for a reason. And it worked well for the Horde. So yeah the Night elves are down to refugees and a small group of fighters.

He sent a young Druid named Teshara to fly after the fleet when he found out about the attack. He himself went to Ashenvale to meet the Horde’s army and support the remaining fighters and civilians that took up arms, yeah. The Horde’s feint worked perfectly for the Horde. But the Horde isn’t pulling that kind of tactic off again at Darkshore, and with Nathanos saying the Alliance is winning on all fronts, it is unlikely the Horde has an army twelve times the size of the Night Elf and Alliances forces at Darkshore just sitting around and waiting in Ashenvale now.

[Terribirus-sargeras]

So yeah the Night elves are down to refugees and a small group of fighters.

Refugees and the bulk of their Army would say.

Also, “there Will be enough elves as the plot requires”

[Galien-thorium-brotherhood (Galien)]

The horde really won’t need that sizable of a force to beat the night elves the night elves won’t be able to use a bottle neck strategy in the offense as effectively they did in the defense. The night elves would in fact need the larger force as they are the ones pressing the assault.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I do not speculate on hypothetical tactics used in future battles, as it is rather pointless. They will be whatever Blizzard wants them to be, even if they literally don’t make any sense (see catapults). I can only comment on the lore we have that is current.

[Galien-thorium-brotherhood (Galien)]

I’m not speculating I’m stating what happened the night elves erected a wisp wall that bottle necked the horde on the narrow front that is darkshore and then set up their defense along a raging river this using both terrain and artificial means to produce a bottle neck. By bottle necking the horde army they were able to demenish the effectiveness of the army by preventing manuvering and keeping the enemy army to a easy to deal with front that they could hit from a fortified position. This isn’t speculating this is what happened it was a brilliant on the fly move that prevented the war of the thorns from being a blow out. When the night elves go on the offense from darkshore however the situation will be reversed and the horde could most likely contain the alliance across the very same front.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Yes, however, depending on how you want to interpret the quests and events of the Darkshore Warfront, the Night Elves have already taken Darkshore back without the use of a bottle neck.

@Amadis-draka

Having done the Darkshore Warfront for a third time now and only facing Sira in every event, I think it’s safe to assume the Malfurion/Nathanos versions of the warfront we heard datamined voice actor work for never got implemented.

So, I figured I would pose some observations on how ultimately the Darkshore Warfront played out, since I was rather invested in discussions about it while it was being tested on the PTR.

Oddly enough, as far as a timeline of events, I think the Horde’s version of the warfront played out before the Alliance’s version, despite that the Alliance gameplay wise had their version of the warfront available before Horde players got their turn.

We know the Horde faces Night Warrior empowered Night Elves in their introductory questing while being lead by Nathanos, and we know Belmont is captured in the Alliance introductory questing, and freed in the Horde’s version of the warfront.

However, neither Nathanos or Belmont show up in the Alliance’s version of the warfront. And in the Alliance introductory questing we had just secured Bashal’Aran, only for the Horde to be holding it during our warfront and we have to take it back again.

Taking all this into consideration, I believe the timeline for the Darkshore warfront most logically would be:

1. The Alliance introductory quests from “On Whispered Winds” to up to Stage 8: The Night Warrior in “In Darkest Night”
2. Malfurion’s assault on the Horde caravan during the flashback in “Terror of Darkshore” before Malfurion meets up with Tyrande and the Alliance player during Stage 9: Nowhere to Run of “In Darkest Night”
3. Then the Horde introductory quests from “Trouble in Darkshore” up to “Where Hope Dies”, which would run concurrently with the Alliance questing from Stage 9: Nowhere to Run in “In Darkest Night” to Stage 11: The Queen’s Pawn.
4. Then the remaining Alliance questing in “In Darkest Night” to “We Are Coming” matches up with the Horde questing from “The Dead of Night” to “Warfront Preparations”, with the ending of “Terror of Darkshore” taking its place in the timeline here as well.
5. The Horde warfront, where the Horde saves Belmont from his capture in Stage 9: Nowhere to Run in “In Darkest Night” and takes Bashal’Aran from the Alliance forces that were there from Stage 7: Zenith in “In Darkest Night”
6. The Alliance warfront, taking Darkshore back from the Horde again.

Two additional conclusions I would make is that Nathanos himself might have been run off of Darkshore after the Horde’s warfront, probably by Tyrande and Malfurion, due to his involvement in the Battle of Dazar’alor. And additionally, where people speculated the the Night Elves and Gilneans departing for Darkshore would have weakened the Alliance’s efforts at Dazar’alor, this did not seem to be the case, as both Night Elves and Gilnean forces contributed to the feint in Nazmir that allowed the frontal assault on Dazar’alor to be successful.

And of course, our two statements on the current state of the war, which would include Darkshore:

Halford Wyrmbane says: My king, the attack on Zuldazar was a resounding success.
Master Mathias Shaw says: The Horde is losing on all fronts. The Alliance should achieve victory in a matter of weeks.

Nathanos Blightcaller says: My queen…reports are coming in from all outposts. The Alliance is tightening its grip. Victory is within their grasp.

What I cannot speculate on is how another hypothetical fight in Ashenvale would go, since, well, it hasn’t happened, and for all we know Blizzard might not mention Ashenvale again this expansion outside of the Mission Tables.

[Galien-thorium-brotherhood (Galien)]

Well that would be depressing

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Carmageddon also pointed something out in another thread that I had not considered in my analysis:

@Carmageddon-hyjal

I think that canonically the Alliance side of Darkshore questing has to come after the Horde, because the Alliance fights an undead and corrupted version of Ivus after he was killed by the Horde during their quests.

So that’s in-game evidence that the Alliance is winning in Darkshore.

[Galien-thorium-brotherhood (Galien)]

Personally how I would like to see darkshore end is with the night elves reclaiming darkshore and being headed off at the border by nathanos and the entire bolstered forsaken army nathanos with a smug look on his face the night elves have obviously fallen into his trap say something smug to malfurion only to have malfurion reply with some line about how they had planned for this eventuality. And nathanos looks to the shore to see the combined fleet of silvermoon suramar the silver convenient the void elves and the other half of the night elf army all being telemancied and void rifted in from the ships in a throw back to the suramar campaign.