I get plenty of people want a challenge, but if we want this game to do well and prosper with more players, we need end game content to be accessible to new players in a reasonable fashion.
Those who want difficulty can just push their keys higher. At the end of the day the main motivation to play an MMO is to either grind gear, or have fun. And if the majority of new players cannot grind gear and the affix’s are not adding fun… than what is the point of them playing?
Again, I get the ‘pug your own keys’, ‘get gud’, ‘find a guild’, arguments… but frankly those are pointless suggestions for a lot of the player base when the difficulty ramp is just plain high.
Pugging is a nightmare, whether its your key or not, there are bad/toxic players at every ilvl and IO score. Tanking or healing as a new player is a nightmare, as it is way to easy for mistakes (yours or someone elses) to be blamed on you to the point that people flame you and leave breaking the key. Dps roles have to wait sometimes hours to fill a key.
Dragonflight in the final seasons (before the key squish), felt best. You could grind mythic gear through the vault at a reasonable key, you could get portals at the ‘highest’ difficulty, you could push keys if you wanted extra challenge, lower keys were low stress, not horribly hard to pug (but could still be better), ect.
Has all this already been said? Yep. But i’m going to help blast the message just incase there is a 0.000001% chance blizz see’s the noise and does something about it.
There are less lower key levels than there are higher key levels. I don’t think you understand that the challenge can be obtained regardless of how difficult 1-12 keys are.
You are not providing any sources of your statistics. And this post is about retaining new players, not existing players.
You are arguing in poor faith not even sticking to the point of the post.
if you want them to keep goign then yes the jump in difficulty now is pretty severe when you start talking about going from a 8 to a 10 or an 11 to a 12. its a pretty nasty hit.
That’s what I’m saying, imagine being a new player. Not knowing what addons are, not knowing that you are supposed to get your talent builds from wowhead or icyveins, not knowing what a meta is, not knowing how stressing tanking and healing can be, not knowing how long dps queues are, ect.
There are going to be hit by a massive wall that is incredibly discouraging. One that is already discouraging for many long-time players who know all these things.
Where is your “source” for new players only? You don’t have anything.
I gave you statistics to back up my argument. You asked for a source while your entire argument is formulated around anecdotes. Talk about arguing in poor faith.
Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome. Why are you trying to argue that everyone should be hitting the top of the rewards tier when it is completely accepted that not all raiders will get CE and get mythic rewards from raids? Double standards.
There’s also an argument for higher keys to become rewarding.
Let’s say Blizzard agrees with both arguments, they revamp M+ to fit what you just asked along with making higher keys more rewarding. Assuming they don’t change the current loot system it means you will get your wish of easier myth track items in the vault, but higher keys that you currently are unable to do will drop myth track items directly.
Now you will become mad again that a level of end game content is not available to you because of skill issue. I don’t mean this as an insult, it’s just a reality, the reason why you’re not farming 10+ is because you’re not good enough in the same sense that the reason I’m not slamming 16s and going to the MDI is because I’m not good enough. We all have a place in this game. I’m not good enough for the MDI, I don’t beg for the game to be changed so I can get in. You’re not good enough to do high keys, you shouldn’t beg for the game to be changed to let you do them. You can just keep playing and get there one day by improving. There’s people timing 10+ at 612 ilvl. You can be 623 or something without going over +8. There’s many ways for you to reach your goals without making blizzard nerf the game, all these ways imply one thing: you will have to spend time playing to improve, your skills and knowledge of dungeons make a bigger difference than gear, and you are not entitled to myth track gear just because a throwaway seasons gave you everything for free. If we use the past as a precedent to justify changes we wish to see in the current game we could also talk about how mythic gear used to only be in mythic raid so you shouldn’t have any way to get that from dungeoning today.
All I’m saying is there’s plenty of people farming 10+, you can also get there by playing better and getting more gear, which is what the people farming 10+ did to get there.
Personally, I think Wow could do a lot more to help incentive behavior, you cannot control players but you can influence them.
Perhaps some type of voting system at the end of the run like we see in other games, with some basic rewards.
Even the dungeon finder gives out basic rewards for healers and tanks at times, I don’t think it would be a far stretch to give them some stuff in m+ as well.
StarCraft used to show win-loss and disconnect, disconnect was basically someone who wanted to leave a game.
I don’t think this would have a huge impact, but a step in the right direction. The biggest thing I think players need to learn, is to pick them self’s backup when things don’t go as planed.
Too many people jump to “Toxic” when they don’t like something. We have a report feature in game for people that are truly toxic, everything else i think can be incentivized to improve the experience.
Isn’t M+ having different difficulty already?
If +10 is too hard, do a +9 still too hard? Do a +8. If timer is what u hate, do a M0. Just because u want it doesn’t mean u deserve it buddy.
I am more comfortable in 8s and 9s but then I have zero chance of a vault uprade. I wish 10s were just for portals so I could do them once each then never again.
wow you are jumping to weird areas in your head game.
show me anywhere where i said that? now if you want people to keep interest in m+ then just like your little mythic raid statement you need to create a smooth pathway for progression or else you get exactly what does happen in mythic raid and people quit when they hit a boss that is a massive wall. so yes in this context asking for them to smooth out the experience isnt a crazy idea and should be considered if they want to keep the population growing. instead right now when you go from an 11 to a 12 is like taking a jog and al of the sudden there is a 15 foot wall in front of you to hop over. most people would turn around and leave at that point but if it was a gradual hill instead then more people would keep going. not saying some people wont hop that wall but is it really needed when we can smooth out the pathway.
the higher you go the higher the rate of disconnect would be making this tool effectively useless.
the higher you go the less likely you can simply “pick yourself” up will actually work. at a certain point a wipe will cost you the key. just flat out.
this is 100% true and annoying. people have forgotten what toxic players are like and overuse this term until it now is worthless.
the only problem with this statement is the artificial walls blizz has dropped in m+ making the progression feel like you are trying to hop over 15 foot walls instead of climb a slope.
Yeah, your right. My point is in the past blizzard did have some basic system (other then rating score) to help players navigate match making. Other games like League, Final fantasy have similar things.
You are arguing against the difficulty of M+ by saying the difficulty jumps are “pretty severe” and specifically mentioned 8-10 and even 11-12. This is where I stated that everyone has equal opportunity to participate in M+, but not everyone will have equal outcomes. You are the one who mentioned 8-10 which is the “top of the rewards tier” that I argued not everyone should be reaching.
There is a smooth pathway within the rewards brackets of keys, but again that doesn’t mean that everyone is going to or should reach the top. The point of bringing up mythic raids was to point out how imbalanced your view points are in terms of PvE gear progression and the extreme double standards. Why is it that M+ needs to be tuned to a point where everyone and their grandmas get Mythic track loot, but Mythic raiders can’t? Blizzard needs to at least try and balance out gearing from the two PvE end-game pillars and not make it so lop sided. To which, in this season they made a lot of progress in evening out loot distribution.
Why are you talking about 11s and 12s when they are above loot rewards and purely for score and leaderboard?
no there isnt and top players and casual players alike are calling them out for it. i dont know why you are arguing against making the overall experience just feel smoother like it should.
i dont have double standards.
never once said that. you can make something be difficult without having to make sudden jumps in difficulty in a mode like m+ where it should be a gradual climb instead with the squish+ these new affixes it makes it feel really bad to climb. so instead of feeling accomplished it just makes people not want to participate at all which is the crux of this thread.
why are you fixated on loot as if that is the only thing to gain from m+. this thread is about making the experience more fun overall and part of that is making it more enticing for players to actually push keys. i never once ever mentioned loot. so idk why you are making up an argument that im not presenting.
Pretty sure Sosari is just a troll at this point tbh. Think i’ve seen them in just about every M+ thread claiming it should stay as hard and grindy as it is. Even though they could just push keys higher if lower keys were made easier… making no sense really.
.