I think it's high time raiding is changed

[Pyra-scarlet-crusade]

@Arevra-frostmourne

Fun fact, Blizzard designs heroic raiding first, then they dumb it down for normal and further dumb it down for LFR, while adding stuff for mythic. They can very easily just not add so much when they add the mythic stuff, or what they do it make it scalable for less than 20 people.

Citation needed.

Are you an employee of Blizzard?

[Kholgrimm-wyrmrest-accord]

prog is fun but reclear is when it becomes a chore

[Gneusch-zuljin]

@Arevra-frostmourne

if you want someone to teach you how to play

Nobody said that. “Learning” and “being taught” are not the same thing. I’ve jumped into LFR to practice my rotation on a new spec or character or something I haven’t played in years. I’m not asking for the group to teach me, I’m learning it myself. I highly doubt anyone is going into random queue and expecting the group to teach them how to play. Surely the group will give them unsolicited advice though, that’s the nature of the game.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Pyra-scarlet-crusade

Citation needed.

How Are Raid Fights Made? - World of Warcraft Encounter Designer Interview

If the timestamp didn’t work, it’s the last question at about 29 minutes in.

[Boomdoggle-zuljin]

@Arevra-frostmourne

Sure some people will eat the boss frontal and die instantly, but then the question needs to be asked, if someone is dying that fast, are they ready to even go into LFR? Some light reading, not cheesing the iLVL using Warbank gear, learning to press a defensive or a self heal, honestly players need to know at least the very basics of basic game play before they attempt LFR.

So basically they should not be eligible to queue for LFR unless they have successfully completed normal? Or do they also have to have a normal completion plus an activity score? Or a heroic completion?

[Addleadzenzo-frostmourne]

AI TEAMMATES FOR ALL PVE CONTENTS.
THEY WORK HARD AND CAN BE PROGRAMMED WHIT PERSONALITY WHICH EVER YOU LIKE.(loyal, humorous, or even toxic etc.)

[Arevra-frostmourne]

I’ve always said, and you can quote me on this, I don’t care for people joining LFR and learning, I’ve never once (and good luck trying to quote me on that) said that people who are learning are not allowed to join LFR.

But people joining LFR and expecting to be taught how to do something should not be what LFR is about, players should not be joining LFR and expecting to have to teach someone how the fight works, or how to play their class, but it happens.

@Gneusch-zuljin

I highly doubt anyone is going into random queue and expecting the group to teach them how to play.

But it happens, and I have even given examples on it happening. You can think people don’t join rando queues to be taught how to play the game, but believe it or not, it does happen.

[Gneusch-zuljin]

Riiiiiight, so screw everyone because a couple people out of millions don’t pull their weight in a random queue.

Imagine dying on this hill.

[Elaice-moon-guard]

I think just removing LFR would be a better idea than what was suggested.

[Brewa-hyjal]

I’ve become increasingly convinced in recent years that they’re designing Mythic first.

This is most obvious in fights where parts of the room aren’t even used, except on Mythic.

[Dwelknarr-lothar]

@Amyrii-echo-isles

And yet there is still a demand for tanks in LFR queue despite only needing 2 of them

Can you clarify what about my statement is incongruent with the demand for tanks in LFR?

1. You’re already comparing apples to oranges here to start. The number of people queuing as tank for dungeons doesn’t give us much insight into how many tanks are queuing for LFR. Additionally, we have no idea how large the LFR queues are compared to dungeon queues, nor the proportions of each.
2. A player whose main is a tank may not choose to bring up other tanks through LFR at all.
3. Many people don’t want to tank for strangers yet do tank for friends/guildies. A person electing not to run tank in LFR does not mean they don’t want to or won’t tank for their organized groups.
4. The domino effect I described could very possibly trickle down to LFR. If I know I’m not going to get to tank in organized raids once I’ve gotten some practice/gear from LFR, I may not even make a character that I can/want to tank on.

@Arevra-frostmourne

Sounds like you don’t raid enough, I have alts who are unable to roll for some gear drops because they already have the exact item, or the same item of a higher iLVL, meaning even if I run the raid I am getting nothing from it and thus allowing others a higher chance to win a roll. It has been 19 weeks since S1 and LFRs first wing started.

Just because people have better chances of taking home loot as a raid tier goes on due to the same item rolling protection with group loot, doesn’t invalidate the statement you quoted. Even if you know your chances are better, there’s still nothing that prevents you from leaving a full raid with nothing just based on luck.

I mean with an 8-boss raid and the current 1 item/5 player loot frequency, it’s a mathematical certainty that a minimum of 20% of your raid will leave the raid with nothing until you’ve killed over half the raid. Maybe that’s okay for organized guilds that will be farming the raid for months and are happy to trade; but in a complete PUG, it’s wild you have to successfully kill more than half the bosses just for it to be mathematically possible for everyone to get one item; and that outcome is approaching statistical impossibility.

@Galabris-alexstrasza

I do agree that fundamentally raids do need updated to be more mechanically dense and a HUGE part of that is making tanks work harder which generally means less active mitigation uptime and/or more active mitigation type of checks like Cata - WoD had (which never worked well for DKs specifically but could be managed)…but that era was seen as very unfun for tanks (who are inherently bad lazy pieces of feces to begin with quite honestly…and I include myself too) and was all but done away with.

I’ve very confused by this suggestion. If you reduce active mitigation uptime, all that would be left with is passive survivability (through a number of means) during the time when the mitigation isn’t up. Design wise, they’d have to make more binary “do you have active mitigation up or die” mechanics and longer periods where you can just face tank things and not die. Perhaps that would be more challenging to have stricter timings on the active mitigation for some, but it would almost certainly be easier for those who struggle with active mitigation uptime today but no problem meeting fight timings.

If we do want to make raid ranking harder, I think a better approach is to make it so there are more total active mitigation abilities but across multiple qualities (so you have so many A tier mitigation, so many B tier mitigation, and so many C tier mitigation). Then the encounters would have many tank mechanics and overlaps which demand either an A tier, B tier, or C tier mitigation. So tanking would come down to ensuring the right tier of mitigation is active for the current situation, and the challenge for each tank would be not using the wrong or too much mitigation at any point lest they run out of the appropriate mitigation down the road.

@Brewa-hyjal

I’ve become increasingly convinced in recent years that they’re designing Mythic first.

This is most obvious in fights where parts of the room aren’t even used, except on Mythic.

I would suspect you’re right, it would make sense to design mythic first and then pare down later. But I don’t know if we really have enough information to say for a couple factors:

1. Heroic has up to 30 players and wide range of skills within the groups (some groups have AOTC within the first couple weeks while others get AOTC the last week of the season). Blizzard might very well be including buffer for the groups that are closer to the end of the season with larger raid sizes that goes entirely unused for even the average groups and/or the smaller raid sizes.
2. We don’t know how often fight designers overshoot their intended target for heroic when the ideas first get put into the game. It’s possible many of the mechanics that are included in mythic only (or are included in both but only have teeth in mythic) were initially designed to be in heroic, but when they started testing it realized it was going to be too demanding for the target skill level.

[Gneusch-zuljin]

@Brewa-hyjal

I’ve become increasingly convinced in recent years that they’re designing Mythic first.

@Dwelknarr-lothar

I would suspect you’re right

Did y’all really not watch the video a few posts up from two months ago saying they design with heroic in mind first

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Brewa-hyjal

This is most obvious in fights where parts of the room aren’t even used, except on Mythic.

That may be a case of what he refers to of as an ‘accidential mythicing’, where they realize that the difficulty of what they’ve come up with for heroic is more in line with mythic.

[Dwelknarr-lothar]

Somehow I totally skipped right over that video when scrolling through the post. Thanks for highlighting that for me.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

I think there’s another interview, this is just the most recent and easiest for me to find.

But the TL;DR is that the initial target is heroic, but sometimes they overshoot and have mythic right away.

[Allolria-khazgoroth]

@Arevra-frostmourne

Numbers are down in raid also, but they do nothing?

M+ is one of the biggest reasons raiding numbers have gone down over the past few expansions. M+ was easy content, 24x7 spammable, low-organisational effort, low group size and it showered you with loot. It even rewarded you for failure with a mythic raiding piece of gear from the great vault.

Compare that to raiding, which is far more difficult, requires a lot more organisation and time commitment and is on a weekly lockout, dropping stuff all loot. And you don’t get rewarded for failing raiding - if you don’t kill a boss doesn’t matter how hard you tried, you dont get anything. Not even a normal ilvl vault slot, let alone a boosted one.

So people flocked to M+ to get their easy loot.

[Pearlight-emerald-dream]

@Allolria-khazgoroth

So people flocked to M+ to get their easy loot.

You’re not seeing the picture for the painting here.

People flocked to M+ because they had no choice because their guild can’t fill 25 man Mythic raid rosters.
You’re not grasping the point of wanting to reduce the numbers or maybe you’re just ignoring it, I can’t tell with people on here, they are very unreasonable.

[Allolria-khazgoroth]

@Pearlight-emerald-dream

People flocked to M+ because they had no choice because their guild can’t fill 25 man Mythic raid rosters.

It was more of a problem for heroic and normal raiding guilds. They could get higher ilvl gear from running much easier (relative) M+ runs. Outside of the occasional trinket, they could gear up over the heroic ilvl from M+ before getting geared from the raid.

Happened to me time and time again - loot drops in raid were scarce. And nearly every time something eventually dropped, I disenchanted it because I already had higher ilvl from running M+.

[Pearlight-emerald-dream]

Yes, you go from Heroic raid to Mythic. If your guild cannot get 20-25 people, you never make the jump, it doesn’t matter the circumstances, if you want better gear you are going to go into M+, especially if you’re in a guild of friends and/or people you know IRL.

Even then it’s still easier to just jump into M+ then go find a Mythic raid guild.

Why are people trying to act all mighty because Blizzard dangled rewards directly in front of people’s face instead of 20 feet up in a tree??? We just want to play the game, not sit and wait for rosters to be created.

[Dwelknarr-lothar]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

But the TL;DR is that the initial target is heroic, but sometimes they overshoot and have mythic right away.

Yeah having not seen the video initially, that was the second supposition I’d made for how Blizzard might target heroic yet still wind up with seeming gaps in the level/boss design.

@Pearlight-emerald-dream

Why are people trying to act all mighty because Blizzard dangled rewards directly in front of people’s face instead of 20 feet up in a tree??? We just want to play the game, not sit and wait for rosters to be created.

A lot of people want to be able to raid log at high level without risking losing their spot to those with whom they are competing with/against who are willing to farm gear from M+. I suspect that’s why many posts in which ways to improve raid loot are suggested get shot down by raiders as being bad for the game and the only solution they will consider is worsening M+ loot.

It’s clear Blizzard has a favorite option here. Actually admitting their objective is to control how everyone plays the game so they can have their cake and eat it too is going to be wildly unpopular. All that’s left is to try to demonstrate how M+ and its looting is bad for the entire fabric of the game.