Since every Horde player seems to be jumping ship at this point, I'll just post my thoughts here about the events of the burning of Teldrassil and why I still support Sylvanas.
First of all, Saurfang should be hanged for treason at the earliest opportunity. He chose to let one of the enemy's most powerful generals and one of its most symbolically important figures walk, defying a direct order from his Warchief. He did this for his own sense of "honor." Saurfang is quite simply not fit to lead. He is willing to throw away victory in this war in exchange for his own warm feeling in his tummy.
Let's not forget, people, that the Alliance started this war. Why were we able to rush through Darkshore so easily? Because the Night Elves had sent their entire fleet to Silithus. And why did they send their entire fleet to Silithus? Because the Horde was mining a valuable resource, azerite. That's right: the Alliance sent a military force against a Horde operation simply because they didn't trust what the Horde would do with that resource. For all they knew, we might use it for some purpose that the Alliance, in their infinite wisdom and moral superiority, may have disapproved of. It's a good thing we have the Alliance to teach us ignorant savages right from wrong and keep us from making the wrong choices! Sarcasm aside, the moment they sent their fleet to Silithus, the war was begun. In so doing, they stupidly left their home base undefended, and Sylvanas chose to seize that opportunity and strike at them where they were most vulnerable. So far, all sound and justified military decisions.
Remember that Sylvanas's stated goal from the start was to destroy the Night Elves' will to fight. In order to further her goal of control over Kalimdor, a key step toward victory in the war at large, the Horde needed to remove Darnassus as an Alliance asset. We could not have the Night Elves continually trying to retake the tree while we fought a war with the rest of the Alliance; that would have created two fronts. Her original plan was to kill Malfurion and use that to pacify the Night Elves. However, when talking with the Night Elf captain on the beach, it became clear to her that the Night Elves' will to fight would not be broken. So, she did the only thing she could do to remove Darnassus as a strategic element: she destroyed it.
This was not a fit of emotion on her part. She did not do it because she was upset at what the Night Elf had said. She did it because denying the Alliance Darnassus was a key strategic goal in the war. When it became clear that the Night Elves would never stop trying to retake it, she destroyed it. Sylvanas is doing what is necessary to win this war - a war that the Alliance started with their colonial attitude toward the Horde. The Alliance had no right to dictate to the Horde what resources they could gather, when, or why. Alliance aggression started this, and Sylvanas is taking the necessary steps to ensure that the Horde wins.
And if your stomache churns at the thought of civilians being killed in the tree, I have two points for you. First, it was the Night Elves' decision to house their civilians in the same place as their important military target. Second, the shock that the Night Elves should feel at that loss should make them seriously reconsider any future actions against the Horde - and that was exactly the point.
You're as delusional as the dark lady herself.
I was questing in ashenvale today and the elves murder your scared peons when they go for lumber so who cares about their civilians, they do the same to horde ones.
08/01/2018 08:54 AMPosted by NotcowmooseI was questing in ashenvale today and the elves murder your scared peons when they go for lumber so who cares about their civilians, they do the same to horde ones.
Those peons are kind of trespassing on Night Elven land, and they have an invasion force with them. Not really the same thing.
08/01/2018 08:54 AMPosted by NotcowmooseI was questing in ashenvale today and the elves murder your scared peons when they go for lumber so who cares about their civilians, they do the same to horde ones.
Peons, trespassing into enemy territory and armed with axes.
Peons, who if caught and asked to stop illegally logging, will either attack on sight or call for the grunts to help them.
The night elves have made it clear many, many times before that the Horde is not welcome in their lands, and any attempt at logging will be met with force.
How many warnings do you get before it's officially your own fault for endangering your own life?
08/01/2018 09:13 AMPosted by IvalesseHow many warnings do you get before it's officially your own fault for endangering your own life?
Some Horde races are a little slower than others.... I mean it's not their fault because once upon a time someone was mean to them that one time. So pardon their repeated abuses to the Alliance. What's a few genocides among rivals? Apparently this is #warcraft and that means well I don't even know anymore. Stupid wars I guess.
08/01/2018 08:52 AMPosted by PrinsophYou're as delusional as the dark lady herself.
Which part of what I said is incorrect?
08/01/2018 09:13 AMPosted by IvalesseThe night elves have made it clear many, many times before that the Horde is not welcome in their lands, and any attempt at logging will be met with force
The moment the Horde landed on the shores of Kalimdor, it ceased to be THEIR land.
Since every WoW player seems to be jumping ship at this point, I'll just post my thoughts here about the events of Wrath of the Lich King and why I still support Arthas.
First of all, Uther should be hanged for treason at the earliest opportunity. He chose to let one of the enemy's most powerful generals and one of its most symbolically important figures walk, defying a direct order from his King. He did this for his own sense of "honor." Uther is quite simply not fit to lead. He is willing to throw away victory in this war in exchange for his own warm feeling in his tummy.
Let's not forget, people, that the mortals started this war. Why were we able to rush through Azeroth so easily? Because the mortals had sent their forces to Northrend. And why did they send their forces to Northrend? Because they heard the Plague originated there. That's right: the mortals sent a military force against an alchemy operation simply because they didn't trust what the Scourge would do with that resource. For all they knew, the Scourge might use it for some purpose that the mortals, in their infinite wisdom and moral superiority, may have disapproved of. It's a good thing we have the mortals to teach us vile scourge right from wrong and keep us from making the wrong choices! Sarcasm aside, the moment they sent their fleet to Northrend, the war was begun. In so doing, they stupidly left their home base undefended, and Arthas chose to seize that opportunity and strike at them where they were most vulnerable. So far, all sound and justified military decisions.
Remember that Arthas' stated goal from the start was to destroy Azeroth's will to fight. In order to further his goal of control over the world, a key step toward victory in the war at large, the Scourge needed to resurrect Kel'thuzad. We could not have the mortals continually trying to retake their lands while we fought a war with the rest of the world; that would have created two fronts. His original plan was to gain a champion and free himself from the Frozen Throne. However, when thinking about his old friend, it became clear to him that he needed to bring back his most trusted ally. So, he did the only thing he could do: destroy Quel'thalas and its precious Sunwell.
This was not a fit of emotion on his part. He did not do it because he was upset at the High Elves for trying to assassinate him in Northrend. He did it because resurrecting Kel'thuzad was a key strategic goal in the war. When it became clear that the elves would never stop trying to defend the Sunwell, he killed them. Arthas is doing what is necessary to win this war - a war that the mortals started with their self-righteous attitude towards 'being alive' and 'having free will' or something stupid like that. The mortals had no right to dictate to the Scourge what resources they could gather, when, or why. Mortal aggression started this, and Arthas is taking the necessary steps to ensure that the Scourge wins.
And if your stomache churns at the thought of civilians being killed in Quel'thalas, I have two points for you. First, it was the High Elves' decision to house their civilians in the same place as their important military target, the Sunwell. Second, the shock that the High Elves should feel at that loss should make them seriously reconsider any future actions against the Scourge - and that was exactly the point.
Now that made sylvanas evil and she committed a genocide, I hope that there is no redemption of any kind. It would be insulting to see an "azeroth is free" at the end. sylvanas must die and we the players of the horde who must be kill her.
08/01/2018 10:11 AMPosted by AuraelFirst of all, Uther should be hanged for treason at the earliest opportunity. He chose to let one of the enemy's most powerful generals and one of its most symbolically important figures walk, defying a direct order from his King.
I'm not sure who this is supposed to refer to. Ma'Ganis? Arthas never ordered Uther to kill Mal'Ganis. The only order Uther disobeyed was the order to purge the citizens of Stratholme, who were his own people that he was sworn to protect, and who he was absolutely not at war with.
Let's not forget, people, that the mortals started this war. Why were we able to rush through Azeroth so easily? Because the mortals had sent their forces to Northrend. And why did they send their forces to Northrend? Because they heard the Plague originated there.... In so doing, they stupidly left their home base undefended, and Arthas chose to seize that opportunity and strike at them where they were most vulnerable.
Wrong. The mortal races sent their forces to Northrend AFTER the Lich King attacked them in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. During the period from the end of Warcraft 3 until that moment, the Lich King was left alone.
08/01/2018 10:11 AMPosted by AuraelRemember that Arthas' stated goal from the start was to destroy Azeroth's will to fight. In order to further his goal of control over the world, a key step toward victory in the war at large, the Scourge needed to resurrect Kel'thuzad. We could not have the mortals continually trying to retake their lands while we fought a war with the rest of the world; that would have created two fronts. His original plan was to gain a champion and free himself from the Frozen Throne. However, when thinking about his old friend, it became clear to him that he needed to bring back his most trusted ally. So, he did the only thing he could do: destroy Quel'thalas and its precious Sunwell.
Wrong on so many counts. Arthas never stated that his goal was to destroy Azeroth's will to fight. Arthas, as of the time period that you are referring to, was not even the Lich King yet. That was Ner'zhul. And Ner'zhul was acting against his will as a slave of the Burning Legion. Kel'thuzad needed to be resurrected so that he could summon Archimonde into Azeroth, not because he was a friend to the Lich King or because it furthered the Lich King's goals.
08/01/2018 10:11 AMPosted by AuraelHe did not do it because he was upset at the High Elves for trying to assassinate him in Northrend. He did it because resurrecting Kel'thuzad was a key strategic goal in the war. When it became clear that the elves would never stop trying to defend the Sunwell, he killed them. Arthas is doing what is necessary to win this war - a war that the mortals started with their self-righteous attitude towards 'being alive' and 'having free will' or something stupid like that.
Well this is just not accurate. The High Elves did not try to assassinate anyone in Northrend. Also, Arthas exterminated most of them AFTER he had resurrected Kel'thuzad. The mortals absolutely did not start that war, and comparing a desire to stay alive with a desire to control what a foreign nation does with their resources is absurd.
The only thing really wrong that you said was the fleet. They were headed to Silithus because they thought the Horde army that ended up in Darkshore was headed to Silithus. Which would have been to protect civilian goblin miners being murder by the Alliance for setting up an operation there. The cinematic didn't portray the change in direction Sylvanas went very well. She realized while talking to the captain that she couldn't break the night elves into submission to occupy Teldrassil so it was better to remove it from being a strategic position. I was mad at first, but no one is really thinking that both sides have been slowly raising the stakes due to lack of gameplay content to really portray it. I support the decision on a strategic level in a greater war. This was just an unavoidable escalation
08/01/2018 10:42 AMPosted by GwyndalynThe only thing really wrong that you said was the fleet. They were headed to Silithus because they thought the Horde army that ended up in Darkshore was headed to Silithus. Which would have been to protect civilian goblin miners being murder by the Alliance for setting up an operation there. The cinematic didn't portray the change in direction Sylvanas went very well. She realized while talking to the captain that she couldn't break the night elves into submission to occupy Teldrassil so it was better to remove it from being a strategic position. I was mad at first, but no one is really thinking that both sides have been slowly raising the stakes due to lack of gameplay content to really portray it. I support the decision on a strategic level in a greater war. This was just an unavoidable escalation
The second those "Goblin civilian miners" murdered the Dwarves from the Explorer's League, they stopped being civilians.
08/01/2018 10:48 AMPosted by AyaaniThe second those "Goblin civilian miners" murdered the Dwarves from the Explorer's League, they stopped being civilians.
It's not clear in the novel when this takes place in the timeline, before or after the Alliance attacked the goblins in Silithus.
08/01/2018 10:56 AMPosted by Loukas08/01/2018 10:48 AMPosted by AyaaniThe second those "Goblin civilian miners" murdered the Dwarves from the Explorer's League, they stopped being civilians.
It's not clear in the novel when this takes place in the timeline, before or after the Alliance attacked the goblins in Silithus.
I struggle to see a reasonable reason why the Alliance would send archeologists after killing some Horde there and leave themselves open to reprisal. No, the goblins murdered the Dwarves first.
08/01/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Ivalesse08/01/2018 08:54 AMPosted by NotcowmooseI was questing in ashenvale today and the elves murder your scared peons when they go for lumber so who cares about their civilians, they do the same to horde ones.
Peons, trespassing into enemy territory and armed with axes.
Peons, who if caught and asked to stop illegally logging, will either attack on sight or call for the grunts to help them.
The night elves have made it clear many, many times before that the Horde is not welcome in their lands, and any attempt at logging will be met with force.
How many warnings do you get before it's officially your own fault for endangering your own life?
Well now now, the horde took your land so no worries as to if peons are trespassing illegally.
I'm not sure who this is supposed to refer to.The point is that 99% of your defense of Slyvanas' actions can be applied in defense to any evil character in WoW.
Slyvanas is and has always been an evil character. Stop trying to 'redeem' your waifu.
08/01/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Absalom08/01/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Ivalesse...
Peons, trespassing into enemy territory and armed with axes.
Peons, who if caught and asked to stop illegally logging, will either attack on sight or call for the grunts to help them.
The night elves have made it clear many, many times before that the Horde is not welcome in their lands, and any attempt at logging will be met with force.
How many warnings do you get before it's officially your own fault for endangering your own life?
Well now now, the horde took your land so no worries as to if peons are trespassing illegally.
Bad news bud. Ashenvale is still very much contested in BfA and very much not Horde land. The Night Elves are giving the Horde nightmares as per the mission table. Actually according to the table the Nelves retook most of their lands.
Why is it always blood elf paladins who are the staunchest supporter of the genocide-attempting, undead-raising Banshee Queen?
:bigthink:
:bigthink:
08/01/2018 11:07 AMPosted by AuraelThe point is that 99% of your defense of Slyvanas' actions can be applied in defense to any evil character in WoW.
Slyvanas is and has always been an evil character. Stop trying to 'redeem' your waifu.
Except that everything you said was factually wrong, so no, 99% of my defense of Sylvanas's action's can't be applied to any evil character in WoW.