Clearly before or at least around the time of Teldrassil’s burning, given that’s why she burned it.
N’Zoth was imprisoned for the majority of WoW, and he knew full well what was going on basically everywhere in Azeroth. I have no difficulty believing the Jailer had ways of knowing what was going on outside his prison too, much like I have no difficulty believing Sylvanas would have some way of knowing when the Arbiter would break.
Sylvanas should have just used those maw powers to off the Jailer. Most of Warcraft’s powers are just susceptible to itself, so Maw powers should hurt the Maw beings that are the Jailer. (What? No? That does work? So Fel hurting demons should be the same, right?).
So, since Sylvanas is super powered, why not just go to Ardenweald to assault the place and break the seal? Seems the Drust, pests for no other term, are causing problems. So who is callings the shots? Why are Bastion and Maldraxxus even thing a thing? Why are the traitor Maldraxxi attacking Bastion? “Wow, we lost 80% of our forces, but we got these owls… score!”
You know, owls that are just anima…
When it comes down to things, I think Ardenweald is the worst zone. Such a mess. Can’t decide between nature zone, life zone, nightmare zone, dusk… errr drusk zone
seriously, who decided the default setting if the Arbiter was broken to send ALL souls to the Maw.
Surely it’s a flaw in The Purpose.
One that The Jailer could have exploited with or without Sylvanas’s help.
There is no proof of this.
Just because you believe this to be true doesn’t make it true, again there is no concrete evidence that Sylvanas knew anything. The Fourth War could have been just Old God manipulation and in that case Sylvanas was just as much of a pawn as the others. It seemed like there was more going on with her pact with Azshara than we know. It seems like Sylvanas supported Azshara’s plan to free N’Zoth and kill him and Azshara by the end became aware of Sylvanas’s plan to unleash the Jailer.
There’s this whole other plot of fighting over the ‘true seat of power’ and I would imagine Sylvanas doesn’t see the jailer as a master but as a means to an end.
The Jailer had allies throughout the Shadowlands who could have kept him informed of the state of affairs. Not the least of which was Denathrius who probably fired the shot to knocked out the Arbiter and start funneling power to the Jailer.
This was literally touched on at BlizzCon. Her actions were calculated to cause as much death as possible. I’m not about to spoon feed this to someone again, so please just refer to the whole conversation I just had with Kaleon.
It’s stupidly pedantic at this point to say that the war that was deliberately caused to inflict as much death as possible - as said by Sylvanas herself at the end of the Loyalist questline - was done for any other reason than to empower the faction she’s currently helping.
Ignoring word of god isn’t going to not make it word of god.
Yeah, but I also watched that Blizzcon and I still have questions because while they said that Sylvanas’s relationship with the Jailer was introduced in Edge of Night, that seems like a reton.
Also the Jailer’s plan to wipe out all life on Azeroth to fuel himself is exactly what Sylvanas fought against for the majority of her history as a character, She’s anti-necromancy at her core and in the past she’s vowed to destroy the Scourge and anyone who uses necromancy for evil. So it’s hard to fans of her character, or those who have been exposed to the Forsaken narrative all these years, to come to terms with or reconcile the fact that Sylvanas is essentially working with the same force she’s been fighting against all of these years…
while yes, you are right they did say that was the goal but that goal conflicts with what we have been told all along so we are inclined to question if this is actually true.
Again, it goes back to faith that Sylvanas’s current alignment and motivations align with her character and that her cause is still noble and she’s subverting this power to dismantle this system.
Nothing you’ve just said contradicts what I’ve just said. You asserted that there was no proof that Sylvanas burned Teldrassil to bloat the Maw, and when faced with proof, you’ve countered with “it’s a retcon.” Which, even if it is, that doesn’t make it any less true.
So I mean… anything past that is headcanoning and shifting the goalpost here.
you seem to think that I’m responding to you to contradict you.
I’m just also saying that despite the fact that devs said she burnt Teldrassil to bloat the Maw there’s no real explanation as to why she would be motivated to do that.
That’s where Shadowlands can fill in the blanks.
They did say it outside of the game, but even inside of it with no outside material its not a hard logic leap to make:
1- Sylvanas causes as much death as possible for yet unexplained reasons
2- Sylvanas is somehow powerful enough to tango with Malfurion and clap Saurfang and Bolvar
3- Its revealed Sylvanas has been in cahoots with the Jailer for quite some time now, which goes back to point 1
Are you really saying that she didnt notice a massive boost in power the more death she caused and tried to solo ICC not knowing she could win?
And even if she didnt know night elves souls were going to the maw, how does it make it any better? Whether it was on a whim or a calculated move she still killed a ton of noncombatants and she sure isnt complaining now that shes in the maw (and therebefore must know) using that power for her own plans
This was true prior to Icecrown.
Not true afterwards when she took the Valkyr and started using Nercomancy herself.
And this all occurred after her suicide attempt and her reported encounter with the Jailor.
We do know Mueh’zala has a two-way involvement in the mortal realm and has been working with the Jailor for at least before Legion.
As for the “shot,” it could have been coincidence that it happened when it did or that the Jailor only merely arranged for it to happen knowing what would happen.
For I suspect that the “shot” was Gul’dan’s soul.
Think about it. We learn that the Arbiter experiences the life of each soul that passing into the Shadowlands. I can imagine that someone as purely evil as Gul’dan would be even something the Arbiter wouldn’t be about to process.
(Granted, it’s a wild theory that has a lot of holes but it could work)
I can. Its not that hard. Frankly, there is nothing in A Good War that really detracts from her union with the Jailor. She uses arguments that she knew would work on Saurfang to get him involved, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that she believes in them. Not to mention, repeatedly throughout that short story, its implied she doesn’t believe her own BS and her own motives direct conflict with the very same gameplan she inspired him to build. Its also slightly teased that SHE at least always intended to destroy the Kaldorei nation, and that she was reveling in the Horde casualties too.
As for BtS … there ONE internal thought people use to try to always point to the inconsistency of Sylvie’s writing. And don’t get me wrong, there is inconsistancy, but this line they use has not been proven that … yet. Its her cursing Vol’jin and the Loa for making her Warchief. Which suggests she did not know the Jailor through Mueh’ put her there. However, honestly, that isn’t an inconsistency if she in fact just doesn’t know that to be the case. That she was made Warchief because they expected her to operate in ways convenient for them, but it wasn’t something formal. Which … the idea she doesn’t know is sort of supported by Mueh still (even now) refusing to be clear and open about the truth of Vol’jin’s death. The only reason he has to keep that secret at this point is if Sylvanas herself doesn’t know the truth. But the idea that she is getting REALLY played here doesn’t sit right with some Sylvanas fans.
This. It’s highly likely that the Jailor’s keeping Sylvanas out of the loop for the grand scope of his master plan. I mean, you see that she honestly believes that he plans to “fix the system. “
And all of his other Minions believe something similar or believe whatever was told them what would benefit them the most.
Doesn’t mean she didn’t know what would happen to the souls of her victims during BfA. She just believed they were the price to pay for “fixing the system”
Exactly. If any player thinks for any reason that he’s being open and equal with any of them … they’re fooling themselves. And just like how Sylvanas kept her Forsaken in line for so long, they’ve all been convinced that they are the exception to the general expectation. That they aren’t just discardable, expandable (even if still important) tools for his use. If she is getting played here, she is getting played by an entity using many of the same manipulative tactics she’s used so frequently on others.
Her “seeing the world as it really is” could very well be just “the world as someone else wanted her to see it”.
And this goes for any player thinking “she’s just using him, biding her time until she can get the upper hand and reveal she’s been working against him the entire time.”
She may think she’s using him but she, and her fan base, are going to be in for a crushing realization.
Even when using necromancy she was against necromancy.
It really wasn’t until Legion after Genn destroyed the Soul Cage that there was any shift in her overall agenda. There’s Legion dialogue where she says “as long as there are beings in this world with power to stop death, I will never stop fighting”
That’s the confusing thing, all of Sylvanas’s critics say “she was like this the whole time!” but fans of Sylvanas, the people who absorb her every word, know it’s not and we have receipts to prove that whatever they are doing with Sylvanas’s character was post Legion.
When we say BfA did a 360 with her character. Trust us.
Either we are in for a crushing realization or her critics are, really only time with tell.
But with the No More Lies and Sylvanas’s Choice cinematics, they are learning more in our favor. Sorry to burst your bubble.
The complete contradiction of that statement aside, her quest chain in Siverpine during Cata disproves that.
Have you been watching different cinematics then the rest of us?
How does it disprove that?
It doesn’t I think you are just cherry picking elements of the story to prove you are right. Forsaken values have always been about free will and the ethics of using necromancy. The Forsaken have had these discussions on ethics built in to our experience as Forsaken.